Customization of gamedata files

[Pete Mack]

That is very much not in the usual design patterns model. For dice, it would be an interpreted mini-language. Same for the various case statements for melee types (CRUSH, HURT, SHATTER, etc.) By and large, separation of code and data is very much a usual design goal.

Originally Posted by t4nk

Well, if I were modding Angband, I'd move quite a lot of that back to C - that is, a .c file, to be parsed and compiled by the C compiler... Especially stuff like dices.

[t4nk]

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

That is very much not in the usual design patterns model. For dice, it would be an interpreted mini-language. Same for the various case statements for melee types (CRUSH, HURT, SHATTER, etc.) By and large, separation of code and data is very much a usual design goal.

Well, define "code" and "data". Is stuff like dice "data"? It's an expression, with operands and operators, variables even... If dice is ok, why not conditionals? (as proposed) Why not loops? Then you'll end up with a full blown programming language. And if that's the intention you'd better using some ready made one. Like Lua... or, indeed, C.
Anyway, you can separate code and data in C just fine. Angband's edit files just move parsing from C compiler's parser to the ones in parser.c or z-dice.c. And as far as I can tell, the only advantage is avoiding recompilation. It's indeed some advantage (justifying the existence of parser.c), but not a huge one for an open source game like Angband (so I don't think z-dice.c should exist).

[tangar]

Originally Posted by t4nk

Well, define "code" and "data". Is stuff like dice "data"? It's an expression, with operands and operators, variables even... If dice is ok, why not conditionals? (as proposed) Why not loops? Then you'll end up with a full blown programming language. And if that's the intention you'd better using some ready made one. Like Lua... or, indeed, C.

lol this talk remind to me debates about old webdesign subject. In old times a lot of people get used to create website with simple HTML. Such websites could have hundreds of unrelated .html documents. So if you would need change one tiny thingy in your website design - you had to apply changes to all this hundreds files.

After a while new CSS technology appeared, which gave possibility to put all design to separate sheet file, so to changes something @ website, you had to change it only at one place, not in hundreds pages.

BUT. Loads of people was against CSS at the beggining. They get used to HTML, they didn't want to learn new technology (CSS is kinda 'language'). And they argued at forums and tried to prove that websites should be created only with HTML and do not need CSS (lets use 'frames' they said lol). Than this story repeated when CMS with databases appeared. A lot of 'old' folk didn't want to move forward in technological way and liked how it was in old times.

This is the same story. Angband moved forward a lot and put it's config out of the code, so now it's easy and comfortable to work with it. But as always, there are some folk who do not like 'new ways' and want to put all stuff back But time would pass and as in old times, they would understand and accept it

[t4nk]

Originally Posted by tangar

This is the same story. Angband moved forward a lot and put it's config out of the code, so now it's easy and comfortable to work with it. But as always, there are some folk who do not like 'new ways' and want to put all stuff back But time would pass and as in old times, they would understand and accept it

You annoy me again! Isn't it you who doesn't want to learn "new technology" (namely, C) and instead proposes incremental additions to the Angband's Parser Language (APL)? Looks like you've become familiar with APL during your involvment with Angand (ToME?) and now you refuse something new.
Also, if you think the unholy combination of HTML, CSS and Javascript is something good, maybe God have mercy on your soul

[tangar]

Originally Posted by t4nk

You annoy me again! Isn't it you who doesn't want to learn "new technology" (namely, C) and instead proposes incremental additions to the Angband's Parser Language (APL)? Looks like you've become familiar with APL during your involvment with Angand (ToME?) and now you refuse something new.
Also, if you think the unholy combination of HTML, CSS and Javascript is something good, maybe God have mercy on your soul

Your Majesty, forgive us, filthy mortals for annoying your holy tranquility

And how come Your Holiness contaminates your soul at this corrupted unholy forum which is made with HTML, CSS and JavaScript? Run, Forest, Run!

[tangar]

lol t4nk please could you leave me alone and do not send insults in my PM Thank you.

some 'if' conditions for you:

if you don't have arguments - you start insults.. it won't make you right, dude.

if you have nothing to say - better to be silent, then you could look like a smart person (tm)

[t4nk]

Originally Posted by tangar

lol t4nk please could you leave me alone and do not send insults in my PM Thank you.

It was a PM for a reason. You can also reply using a PM.

some 'if' conditions for you:

if you don't have arguments - you start insults.. it won't make you right, dude.

if you have nothing to say - better to be silent, then you could look like a smart person (tm)

Thank you for your wisdom.

[tangar]

Originally Posted by t4nk

It was a PM for a reason. You can also reply using a PM.

No thank you, sir, I do not want to answer on your insults via PM or in any other way of correspondence. Let's just leave this tiny unpleasantness behind and do not repeat it again.


==

Back to gamedata customization.. Some new stuff were added @ trac, such as 'Make hunger a timed effect'. It could look tiny thing, but actually it would bring huge possibilities to make hunger system more flexible. New objects (eg RNG food items which could be sometimes bad and sometings good), curses, traps, types of attacks.. It's quite revolutionary to food managment system Huge thanks to devs that they approved this!

Next question (or /rfe) is about DoT (damage per time) type of damage. I wonder, is it possible to assign such effect to monsters and player attacks or to the objects? So it would work like 'poison', but would be different type, eg give possibility to add 'burning' or damaging curse effect?

[tangar]

damm. this toxic person (t4nk) continues to write insults in PM. Dear moderators, is there way to block PM somehow? Please help to solve this nasty issue. Thanks.

p.s.
It's appeared that t4nk is Russian-speaking (as I am) and he's got some problems I'm not aware of. Please do not judge all Russian-speaking people by such behaivour. Several years ago I've recording video: "Why players hate RUSSIAN gamers?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYsA7t-LYNQ which explains a bit a source of this issues.. But I didn't expect to meet such person in this nice community. I'm sorry for this inconvenience.

Actually it's quite typical problem for Russian-speaking people - when one meet another abroad in real-life or at international web platform - they could start hating behaivour. An interesting social phenomena. USSR heritage.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

By and large, separation of code and data is very much a usual design goal.

I would say rather, you want separation of logic and data. That is, there's the data, which is in one place, and then there's the stuff that operates on that data, which is elsewhere. But they can both be "code" (i.e. compiled into the same binary). This can be tempting especially when you're in a language as archaic as, what, C89? Which lacks many tools that make parsing data files easier.

In general I feel that devolving more attributes to the data files is a good thing, but I'm definitely sensitive to the fact that we don't want to be making a DSL (domain-specific language) just for Angband data.