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Old December 18, 2015, 09:59   #1
Gram
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having trouble making transition to late game

Before I asked for advice the last time I'd already maxed stats. Now (here's the ladder link), a little further on, a couple levels gained, a couple vaults seen, and some uniques and a Great Wyrm of Chaos defeated, I've had some more nice finds. I now have enough speed and other good gear that I guess many of you would urge me to find a good stack of Deep Descent and go straight to the levels where one might find the rings of power.

But I've never been this deep before, and I've slowed my descent progress significantly since hitting CL42,DL52. There've been a couple areas I've handily cleared where I was nonetheless unnerved by the realization that if I failed to notice something that woke a couple sleeping monsters (mushroom, a breath that had a larger impact area than I'd counted on, whatever) I'd be instantly dead. And after a few run-ins with time hounds and one with gravity hounds, I guess the only way dealing with the worst hounds improves from here is that maxing CON bonuses would give me a couple extra breaths' worth of breathing room. I think I'm going to have to learn to be considerably more precise about some kinds of things to survive deeper than this.

Even more than that, the bigger obstacle to feeling ready to move on has been that the inventory management struggle gets worse with the growth of the pile of accumulated artifacts that don't seem to obviously supercede or be superseded by another.

Amulet of Trickery would be nice but I'm reluctant to give up regen. Plenty of artifact body armors with nice benefits, but I sure was glad of disenchant and chaos resist when battling that Great Wyrm of Chaos, and I really would like to keep my artifact gear in like-new condition. And so on and so forth. I really could use some equipment advice.

A few questions about non-equipment inventory:

Now that my speed normally comes from equipment and Haste Self, it probably doesn't make sense for me to have both staves and potions of speed, right? My guess: stockpile potions, eliminate staves.

What should I do about Teleportation at this depth? Do I really figure it's always too dangerous and get rid of both sources? That doesn't feel right to me. I guess that depends on having pConf and pBlind to ensure other escapes work. Also, when I'm tackling something hard enough to need an escape I've usually already cleared most all the rest of the level.

Rod of Healing saves consumables I'm stockpiling, Rod of Teleport Other avoids dealing with charges, and Rods of Detection save a couple turns and some mana, noticeable when entering a new level. But obviously the rod of Healing, with failure rate and recharge time, is no substitute for potions in the middle of a fight, a single rod of TO may soon be very insufficient, and detection's benefit may not be that noticeable. Should I toss them all?

Last edited by Gram; December 18, 2015 at 23:03.
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Old December 18, 2015, 10:26   #2
Timo Pietilä
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gram View Post
Before I asked for advice the last time I'd already maxed stats. Now (here's the ladder link)
Carlammas + Erebor should make quite big impact on your survival. You need HP and +6 to CON when base is 18/150 makes a huge difference.

[EDIT] Didn't notice Elros. Elros + Trickery + Cestus of Power = +4 CON, +5 DEX, +5 STR, +2 Speed, +pConf ...... and -FA. Can't believe that you have only one source of FA. Usually by that time I have it covered by several items.

OTOH with 100% saving throw FA is no longer needed, so couple of more levels and you can forget that.

Last edited by Timo Pietilä; December 18, 2015 at 13:35.
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Old December 18, 2015, 13:15   #3
PowerWyrm
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Or use the Glaive of Pain for a huge boost to your damage output.
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Old December 18, 2015, 14:31   #4
Estie
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For weapon, Glaive of Pain makes everything else you have superfluous.

Of all the middle artifact armours, Caspanion is the best in 99% of cases. Wear it for the con bonus and avoid disenchanters for now. With helm covering resist base, Elros is the best shield atm (consider switching to a shield of preservation once you find one; make sure not to squelch "excellent" shields). Holcolleth for the 2 int and more mana/less fail.

Amulet of trickery, dont worry about regen; it only matters if you go for low turncount. Amulet of weaponmastery is another possible source of rdisenchantment should you find it.
As for rings, with the ability to cast haste self, running around with +20 speed and buffing for fights is the way to go. This means you can replace one speed ring. Since con is covered with the setup I suggest, I would want a ring of strength. The sustain is nice and the damage increase is very substantial when you approach 18/220; eventually, ring of damage becomes the default. You can safely discard the gauntlets of power, since wearing them ruins your manapool; the only type to hold onto is alchemist gloves of power.
Oh and a lantern of true sight offers pblind; you dont have to carry oil, just remember to fill it up when in town.

With this setup, you lose rdisenchantment and gain everything else.

I assume you dropped the town books to pick up more loot. You can discard the rods of detection, rogues have a spell for everything; also, mushroom of vigor can be stored at home (especially if str is sustained).
Staff of destruction: I never carry those, because of the fail chance; I prefer scrolls, either destruction or tele level, for last ditch escape.
Staves/potions of speed: you have haste self in book 4, no need for those, either.
With 25 potions of restore mana accumulated, you can safely drink one if you find yourself in need of mana. You only need a handfull for the endfight.

Edit: lategame rogues have the best buffline in game: for important fights, cast from book 4: haste self, from Scarabterices: resistance and shield, from Tensers: heroism, berserker. And dont worry about deep descent scrolls, you have create stairs spell in Mords. Not only does it allow for a quick dive, it is also a valuable safety measure.

Last edited by Estie; December 18, 2015 at 14:46.
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Old December 22, 2015, 09:08   #5
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I would add that afaik, more speed is always useful, especially against some of the nastier residents of the dungeon. Being able to teleport, even randomly, has saved my ass more times than I can remember. Remember, if you are teleporting away from something that is going to murder you, and you end up next to something that is going to murder you, your situation hasnt really degraded. Generally your teleport will keep you alive, and if you can teleport twice in a row, all the better. Also, if you are getting decent loot, sell it and check the black market for stat potions. You can often get your stats where they need to be with potions instead of having to augment them with gear by the level you are at.
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Old December 22, 2015, 11:45   #6
Bogatyr
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Once you max CON (18/200+), and have > 600-ish HP, and have either ESP or good detects, just dive to 98 and loot vaults and kill things until you have enough consumables, speed, attack power, and HP for the final fight. You don't even have to wait until clev 50, I'll frequently go after Morgoth after around clev 46 if I have all that I need. You must be familiar, though, with the maximum attack output of the uniques and thoroughly manage your fights to make sure you don't get surprised.
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Old January 26, 2016, 19:26   #7
Gram
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I came back to this character, picked up a few improvements and hit CL50, and have now made it down to DL 80, where I found an *amazing* vault. Went for the stuff I knew would be amazing first and found the Arkenstone, Narya, Ingwe, and the Pendant of the Dwarves. (I'd been hoping for the Arkenstone for a while, since I've been running around with no rLight, rDark, or pBlind, and this is the first time I've found a ring of power.) It's a well-compartmentalized vault so there's not too much danger of getting mobbed, and my legendary stealth meant I could go where I wanted. Also found a staff of banishment elsewhere on the level which I used a few times. Still 120 items and 78 monsters, though, and a few things are starting to wake up.

Here's the monsters that are still around and are worth noting:

Ancalagon the Black (asleep) 8N 11W
Maeglin, the Traito (asleep) 8N 10E
Glaurung, Father o (asleep) 11N 15W
Polyphemus, the Blin (asleep) 4N 3E
Greater titan (asleep) 8S 9E
Ossé, Herald OF Ulmo (asleep) 3S 1W
Fundin Bluecloak (asleep) 8N 10W
Elder aranea (asleep) 6N 8W
Greater basilisk (asleep) 9S 1E

I'm not really in the mood to try taking Ancalagon or Maeglin on. Should I just TO all the other uniques as well just because if they drop good stuff I may well not have any way to carry it back home (depending on how many of the rest of those 120 items already on the floor are artifact or near-artifact quality)? Or take on Osse and Fundin and leave the rest? Or go for broke and live dangerously?

(BTW, is there a good way to dump terminals other than the main screen? For the monster list I took a screenshot, ran the relevant portion through OCR, then had to retype the locations anyways; it would have been faster to just retype it all.)

Once I've finished with the vault I'm going to need to ask for advice about the loot. One question I know I'll be asking- under what circumstances do I wear Narya (or maybe other rings of power in the future) rather than keep wearing my +12 speed and damage rings? Also, I've got too many artifact body armors etc cluttering up my home, but while I think there are fewer circumstances where any of them other than Caspanion or Soulkeeper would be as helpful as the Dwarven Chaos DSM I'm presently wearing, none of them seem to be strictly comparable to any other.

Code:

                                                                                                 
Hobbit                 D S S S S S S S S S S S       u u u u   u u u         . . . . . #         
Master Thief # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #   . . . . . #         
Rogue            # # # a o o # # # # b k [ k k # # # # & & & # # # . . . # #   . . . . #         
LEVEL     50 ] # #   S o o o # D h # # # # # # # / [ # . / . ? . # # . $ h # # . . . . #         
EXP  8242241   #   C C C e S #   # # / # b # | # # b # & & \ . . . # } . ? . # . . . . #         
AU   1498816   #   C C # # # # # # # S # # #   # # # # # # # . . . # ! ~ [ ~ # . . . . #         
             # # T C # # d?  #     # # # ( # # #     #     # # . . . # # # . # . . . . #         
STR!  18/210 ^ ^ T # #   h # # # # # # . _ . # # # # # # W P # # . . . . # # # . . . . #         
INT!  18/160 # # # # T T # # # o o # # . . . # # B   # # #   d?# # # # . f # # . . . . # # # #   
WIS!  18/110 # _ . # # + # M # o # # . # . # ^ # #   # T # + # # T T # # ' # # . . . . # # . #   
DEX!  18/*** ^ . ^ # # ? . ? # # # . . # ] # ^ ^ # # # . T $ # # . ^ ^ . . # # . . . . # # # .   
CON!  18/*** . ^ . ' . . . ] ' . . . . . # ! $ . . . @ . . . . ' . . . . . . ' . . . . ' . . .   
             . . . # # $ $ . # . # . ^ # . # ^ . # # # ! . . # # . . . . . # # . . . . # # # #   
Cur AC   182 # . . # # + # | # . # # . # . # . # # p # r # ' # # W R # # ' # # . . . . #         
HP  981/ 981 # # # # | ? # # # . . # # . . | # #   A # # # . ? # # # # . . # # . . . . #         
SP   69/ 237 . . . # # !   # # . # # # ? _ - # # # # # #   . # # ( ( . . # # # . . . . #         
             # # . \ # # -   # { _ , # # . # # # o   # W   # # . ! . # # # . # . . . . #         
[**********] [ # . . . # # # # . # # . # # # G # # # # # # # . . . # . . . . # . . . . #         
               # . ~ . ] | ] # . # # . . . # \ # #   # /   . p | . # . . _ . # . . . . #         
               # # [ - . & \ # . . # # # . # # # ] | # H p [ / ? # # - P?. # # . . . . #         
Fast (+31)     - # # # \ ] ] # # # # " . . . . # # # # R?] \ # # # } / . # # . . . . . #         
4000' (L80)  # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # . . . . . . #         
             LF:9-9 Full Study (11) DTrap                                                        
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Old January 26, 2016, 19:39   #8
Pete Mack
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Going for broke killing OOD uniques is a mugs game. First, they will drop better stuff at their native depth. Second, "li'ving dangerously" is the generally the same as "dying before the final fight." Kill the uniques at your leisure in a less dangerous environment. Also, many of those are summoners, and who knows what they will bring. Just kill the easy stuff, and teleport everything else away.
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Originally Posted by Gram View Post
I came back to this character, picked up a few improvements and hit CL50, and have now made it down to DL 80, where I found an *amazing* vault. Went for the stuff I knew would be amazing first and found the Arkenstone...
[
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Old January 26, 2016, 19:56   #9
Gram
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As I said, I really have no intention of facing Ancalagon or Maeglin at this point; I was being flippant. All the rest of these guys (hey, I guess Khamul, the Black Easterling must be just out of my esp range since he was there a minute ago) have their native depth at least 8 levels higher than here, and this is about 20 levels deeper than Fundin and Osse's native depth. With Narya it could be almost tempting to try taking Glaurung on, but that undiggable corridor up there is a bad spot for summons.

BTW I had a spot of worry earlier on this level, making my way over to the vault, when a greater demonic Q summoned a couple of horned reapers who started summoning things that started summoning things; luckily the reapers trampled many of their own summons, and after a couple uncomfortable fights I found that staff of banishment and ended that.
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Old January 26, 2016, 20:19   #10
Derakon
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Going for broke killing OOD uniques is a mugs game. First, they will drop better stuff at their native depth.
Not that I disagree with the rest of what you said, but the depth of items dropped by a monster is MAX(monster's native depth, (current depth + monster's native depth) / 2). You are never penalized by killing an out-of-depth monster -- though you are rewarded somewhat for killing a monster that is deeper than it should be.
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