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Old June 19, 2010, 21:15   #21
miyazaki
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Another way to nerf archery/make the game more realistic: when you hit a monster with an arrow, it doesn't immediately fall to the ground, it sticks in. This should happen in the game. You don't get the arrows back until you kill the monster. Practically, they could disappear into the monster's inventory. Same with bolts. Shots/pebbles OTOH wouldn't. They would end up on the floor and could be picked up and reused immediately. This might make slings slightly more attractive.
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Old June 19, 2010, 22:19   #22
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IMO the current quiver is too powerful (immunity to damage aside, which IIRC is regarded as a bug). Getting rid of the "enchant arrows to match" game was good but now it is way too easy to carry large quantities of arrows in to the dungeon. Quiver should be 50 arrows per slot or even 40. 99 is too many.

Getting rid of branding spell is okay but I don't think will make that much of a difference. I've never had a hard time finding good ammo once I'm deep enough. YMMV.

Getting rid of extra shots is okay too. I value might over shots right now. I operate under the assumption that every arrow I shoot will be lost so I try to make each go farther not faster.

Limiting bonuses on ammo would probably make the most difference. Maybe arrows should be immune to enchanting too.

Another idea is to not sell enchant scrolls in the store. I feel the same way about restore potions but recognize that is wildly unpopular.
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Old June 19, 2010, 22:46   #23
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If you remove enchant scrolls from the stores then you remove the only practical way to break heavy curses currently in the game.

Mind you, given that heavy curses can be broken by enchant scrolls, I'm not sure what point they're serving right now...personally I'd rather see non-permanent sticky-wield removed from the game entirely.
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Old June 19, 2010, 23:13   #24
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I'm working on a patch right now which implements Pete Mack's idea of adding rather than multiplying launcher and ammo multipliers (so longbow + fire branded arrows would get x6 instead of x9 against fire-susceptible foes). It also applies the multiplier to the damage roll only (like melee weapons get).

I'll post the patch here and then start playing rangers

If the rangers still are able to effectively use archery then I'll probably check it in; otherwise I'll probably tone it down a bit and try again.

EDIT: see http://bearhome.net/erik/ranged.patch for the first stab at this. All I modified is attack.c (for the actual damage) and obj-info.c so you can tell what damage your "new" missile weapons will do. I intend to make things like =damage work with archery to compensate (although that isn't included in this patch)... even so I expect it will be pretty sobering.
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Old June 20, 2010, 00:21   #25
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Applying the multiplier to the damage is realy brutal for starting players, since arrows are only 1d4. Really, really brutal.
Rather than that, I'd tone down rangers by giving them only 1 extra shot as the next step, as in NPP.
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Old June 20, 2010, 00:28   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
If you remove enchant scrolls from the stores then you remove the only practical way to break heavy curses currently in the game.

Mind you, given that heavy curses can be broken by enchant scrolls, I'm not sure what point they're serving right now...personally I'd rather see non-permanent sticky-wield removed from the game entirely.
I think removing heavy curses is in the works.

I agree that enchant scrolls shouldn't be sold in the store, and they should useful to +20 or higher.
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Old June 20, 2010, 01:03   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
If you remove enchant scrolls from the stores then you remove the only practical way to break heavy curses currently in the game.
Oops! I retract. Unless curses are reworked. Or remove curse applies to heavy curses. Or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miyazaki View Post
enchant scrolls shouldn't be sold in the store, and they should useful to +20 or higher.
+1
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Old June 20, 2010, 01:53   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Applying the multiplier to the damage is realy brutal for starting players, since arrows are only 1d4. Really, really brutal.
Rather than that, I'd tone down rangers by giving them only 1 extra shot as the next step, as in NPP.
Interestingly, it doesn't change a beginning character's life that much. Rather it makes the standard advice to enchant a longbow to +9/+9 much less useful than it was.

Anyway, it is easy to do only half of the change. I'm gonna play around with this for a bit but I expect you are probably right.
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Old June 20, 2010, 02:07   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Interestingly, it doesn't change a beginning character's life that much. Rather it makes the standard advice to enchant a longbow to +9/+9 much less useful than it was.
That's a huge change to a starting character's survivability. Inability to do 30 dam/turn at a distance (and replace it with ~13) is a really big change. That is at the level of O-combat starting archery, which is already well-established as useless for most characters.
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Old June 20, 2010, 02:07   #30
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I think what I did in DJA for nerfing archery works pretty well:
x2 = x1.75
if x1.75 = 2 then x1 = .875 (half of 1.75), so:
x3 = x2.625
x4 = x3.5
etc

EDIT: Also, a missile-nerf idea no one has suggested: Make some monsters resistant to missiles (halves damage for those monsters).
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