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Old May 15, 2008, 02:41   #41
zaimoni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
So a Bow of Lothlorien could have Free Action twice?
No, but the object creation would try. The net effect is that sometimes a Bow of Lothlorien doesn't have the extra random low resist it's supposed to.
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Old May 15, 2008, 17:02   #42
JamesDoyle
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I've jsut realised that Leon's list of Slay multipliers isn't complete (I think)

Leon had:
x2 Slay Evil
x2 Slay Animal

x3 Slay Orc
x3 Slay Troll
x3 Slay Giant
x3 Slay Undead
x3 Slay Demon
x3 Slay Dragon

x5 Execute Undead
x5 Execute Demon
x5 Execute Dragon

I have assumed that Execute == *Slay*

But there is an extended list of *Slay* weapaons in ego-item.txt, so putting Leon's info into that:

x2 Slay Evil
x2 Slay Animal

x3 Slay Orc
x3 Slay Troll
x3 Slay Giant
x3 Slay Undead
x3 Slay Demon
x3 Slay Dragon

x? *Slay* Evil
x? *Slay* Animal

x? *Slay* Orc
x? *Slay* Troll
x? *Slay* Giant

x5 *Slay* Undead
x5 *Slay* Demon
x5 *Slay* Dragon

What are the missing multipliers, and are the ones there correct for the current version?
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Old May 15, 2008, 17:47   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
I've jsut realised that Leon's list of Slay multipliers isn't complete (I think)

But there is an extended list of *Slay* weapaons in ego-item.txt, so putting Leon's info into that:

What are the missing multipliers, and are the ones there correct for the current version?
You're confusing two entirely different things here.

We have ego items that are named "Slay Whatsit", "*Slay* Whatsit", or "of Element". These ego types are each associated with a variety of 'flags' that the game uses to apply damage (and that I will discuss below).

A weapon of Slay Animal provides the SLAY_ANIMAL flag.
A weapon of Slay Evil provides the SLAY_EVIL flag.
A weapon of *Slay* Evil provides the SLAY_EVIL, BLESSED, and WIS flags.
A weapon of Slay Dragon provides the SLAY_DRAGON flag.
A weapon of *Slay* Dragon provides the KILL_DRAGON, RES_FEAR, and CON flags.

The SLAY_ and KILL_ flags are interpreted as follows:
When calculating the damage of a shot, arrow, bolt, hafted weapon, polearm, sword, or digging weapon (which should be all of them), the damage can be multiplied by a value 'mult'. The largest mult value is used (or 1 if no SLAY_, KILL_, or BRAND_ apply).

SLAY_ANIMAL weapons have a mult of 2 when striking animals.
SLAY_EVIL weapons have a mult of 2 when striking evil monsters.

SLAY_UNDEAD, SLAY_DEMON, SLAY_ORC, SLAY_TROLL, SLAY_GIANT, and SLAY_DRAGON each have a mult of 3 when striking an appropriate monster.

BRAND_ACID, BRAND_ELEC, BRAND_FIRE, BRAND_COLD, and BRAND_POIS each have a mult of 3 when striking a susceptible monster.

KILL_DRAGON, KILL_DEMON, and KILL_UNDEAD each have a mult of 5 when striking an appropriate monster.


In weapon descriptions, a SLAY_WHATSIT flag becomes "It slays whatsits". (SLAY_EVIL is "It slays all evil creatures".) A KILL_WHATSIT flag becomes "is especially deadly against whatsits". A BRAND_ELEM flag becomes "It is branded with elem".


So, Leon's list perfectly describes the SLAY_ (Slay) and KILL_ (Execute) flags. The translation to egos is inexact: except for dragons, demons, and undead, a *Slay* Whatsit weapon has only the SLAY_WHATSIT flag (for a multiplier of 2 or 3). A *Slay* Dragon, Demon, or Undead weapon has the KILL_DRAGON, KILL_DEMON, or KILL_UNDEAD flag (for a multiplier of 5). Slay Whatsit weapons have SLAY_WHATSIT flags (for a multiplier of 2 or 3).


Note that a Mace of Disruption has SLAY_UNDEAD and many artifacts have SLAY_ or KILL_ flags. No standard weapons have BRAND_ flags, but artifacts (and egos) do.


References (for 3.0.9b): The SLAY_, KILL_, and BRAND_ flags are assigned mult values by tot_dam_aux() in cmd1.c. Those flags are interpreted for the 'I'nfo screen by describe_slay() and describe_brand() in obj-info.c. The flags are assigned to weapon types, ego item types, and artifacts by lib/edit/object.txt, lib/edit/ego_item.txt, and lib/edit/artifact.txt.

Kevin
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Old May 15, 2008, 18:12   #44
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Originally Posted by roustk View Post
You're confusing two entirely different things here.
That came off a bit harsh. The terminology used in the game and code fails to be either specific or consistent, leading to a variety of misinterpretations. A user guide needs to clarify, especially in circumstances like these.

The name of a weapon gives a hint of its powers, but the only real value in the name is to label weapons which have the same powers. All *Slay Animal* weapons do the same thing (and they apparently have something to do with slaying animals and are more powerful in some sense than mere Slay Animal weapons).

The 'official' in-game information about the powers of weapons (or armor) come from the 'I'nfo screen. If a weapon "slays animals" or "slays all evil creatures", its damage is multiplied by 2 when attacking animals or evil creatures, respectively. If a weapon "slays" anything else, the damage is multiplied by 3 when attacking those creatures. If a weapon is "especially deadly" against a creature, the damage is multiplied by 5.

Please drop the "execute" language here -- it is not used outside of the code (and then only in comments and one variable name). No need for yet another term for KILL and especially deadly weapons.

EDIT: and Executioner's Swords have no SLAY or KILL flags. Crisdurian has SLAYs, but no KILLs.
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Old May 15, 2008, 19:45   #45
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Thanks for clarifying. I realised Execute wasn't the correct terminology, but it's what Leon had used in his earlier version of the manual; I presume it might actually be the correct term in a variant of Angband.
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Old May 15, 2008, 20:40   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
I've jsut realised that Leon's list of Slay multipliers isn't complete (I think)

....
Summarizing the above: Leon's list is complete, but the usage in the configuration files is less than transparent.

*Slay* Weapons confer thematic bonuses in addition to the increased damage.

If there is a KILL_* flag, it is used for a *Slay* weapon rather than the SLAY_* flag: multiplier 5x. Otherwise, *Slay* weapons confer no extra damage over their lesser variants: same multiplier.
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Old June 9, 2008, 11:11   #47
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How to format item lists in the User Manual

I've been debating about how to format the lists of info on things like ego-items and artifacts, and would appreciate people's views on this.

In the spoiler files, the information is presented as a paragraph of text, e.g.
The Main Gauche of Maedhros (2d5) (+12,+15)
It increases your intelligence and dexterity by 3. It increases your
speed by 3. It slays trolls and giants. It grants you immunity to
paralysis and the ability to see invisible things. It cannot be harmed by
the elements.
Level 15, Rarity 30, 3.0 lbs, 20000 AU
Some of this is not really of great significance, e.g. the weight is the same as the standard weapon, and 'it cannot be harmed by the elements'; some would, I believe, be better laid out as a table, e.g. hit dice (where different to normal) to-hit and damage bonuses, level, value, etc.

As to the descriptive section, this could be laid out as in the spoiler, or as a list of 'bullet' points
  • Increases your intelligence and dexterity by 3.
  • Increases your speed by 3.
  • Slays trolls and giants. (Note: 'slaying' needs to be explained more clearly, I think)
  • Grants you immunity to paralysis and the ability to see invisible things.

Or it could be done as a table, with columns for each item (and this may not format ok):
STR INT WIS CON DEX CHR
- +3 - - +3 -

This has the advantage of being very clear, but would take up a lot of space!

Question: Which would people prefer?

There is also the issue of the order items are listed in: the spoiler file seems to go for:
  1. stat changes
  2. speed (which is a static ability, most of which are later)
  3. slays
  4. branding
  5. resistances
  6. stat sustains
  7. static abilities (incl. FA, which I think of as a resistance)
  8. curses
  9. activated abilities

I would prefer curses to be right up front, and to group sta changes and sustains together, and also branding and elemental resistances, so my preferred list order would be:
  1. curses
  2. branding
  3. resistances
  4. stat changes
  5. stat sustains
  6. slays
  7. speed
  8. static abilities
  9. activated abilities

Question: What do people think - is this better, worse, or don't you care?

I would also like to regularise such references as lightning/electricity, and to 'flavourise' references like 'regeneration' - do people have storng feelings about this.

My last point is that I want to separate out 'spoiler' info from easy obtainable info; without going and finding every artifact, is there an easy way to tell what info is 'hidden' until an *Identify* scroll is used?

Thanks
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Old June 9, 2008, 12:12   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
Question: What do people think - is this better, worse, or don't you care?
I trust you on this, as long as the in-game description in V is changed in the same way so that I can steal to Un both the manual and the in-game code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
I would also like to regularise such references as lightning/electricity, and to 'flavourise' references like 'regeneration' - do people have storng feelings about this.
Wonderful. But see above about synchronizing with source code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
My last point is that I want to separate out 'spoiler' info from easy obtainable info; without going and finding every artifact, is there an easy way to tell what info is 'hidden' until an *Identify* scroll is used?
I'm stronly in favour of revealing in-game all fixed artifact properties and all non-random ego properties after ordinary ID. Add more random properties to egos (to fixed artifacts too?) to make it more interesting and hide the list of fixed artifacts as a spoiler so that people have the surprise of finding Ringil for the first time totally unspoiled (oh, yes, sure ).
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Old June 13, 2008, 23:18   #49
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Further to my previous post about standardising the list of artifact (and ego-item) attributes, I want to define standard orders of resists, slays and static abilities for use in the user guide. I haven't had the opportunity to cross-check with the order these are displayed when you I an item in the game, which may oir may not match the artifact.spo spoiler file (which is, in at least some ways, internally inconsistent).

For each list order, I'd like to aim for this to be in some sort of order of importance - for elemental effects and slays this is currently weakest to strongest, but for resists and static abilities it's strongest to weakest; I'm not sure why I've done this - but this is not completely objective, so I'm soliciting views on whether these are in the right order

elementals: cold, fire, lightning, acid, poison (I put this here because poison can be branded)

resists: paralysis, poison, life draining, nether, nexus, disenchant, blindness, shards, chaos, light, dark, sound, confusion, fear (should confusion be higher, as it prevents you performing certain actions?)

slays: animals, evil, orcs, trolls, giants, undead, dragons; demons

static abilities: speed, blows, shots, might, regen, telepathy, see-invis, infra, stealth, feather_fall, slow_digest, lite, search, tunnel (i put blessed in a separate category)

Anyone want to comment?
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Old June 14, 2008, 11:08   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
elementals: cold, fire, lightning, acid, poison (I put this here because poison can be branded)

resists: paralysis, poison, life draining, nether, nexus, disenchant, blindness, shards, chaos, light, dark, sound, confusion, fear (should confusion be higher, as it prevents you performing certain actions?)

slays: animals, evil, orcs, trolls, giants, undead, dragons; demons

static abilities: speed, blows, shots, might, regen, telepathy, see-invis, infra, stealth, feather_fall, slow_digest, lite, search, tunnel (i put blessed in a separate category)

Anyone want to comment?
Things vary, are not independent, but here is my try.

Poison is weaker brand than fire.
Paralysis and life draining belong with abilities, not resists.
nexus, poison, confusion, blindness, chaos, sound, disenchant, nether, light, dark, shards, fear
orcs, giants, trolls, animals, undeadx3, demonsx3, dragonsx3, evil, x5
I don't see how you can compare shots to esp but I will try.
fa, esp, si, shots, speed, blows, might, regen, lite, life drain, infra, stealth, other

You should forget all that and go with the order in defines.h.
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