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Old June 14, 2008, 16:55   #51
zaimoni
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It would be simpler to just go with the defines.h list for order of reporting. Actual importance would go in a strategy guide.

The relative importance of these is affected by the AI options. PowerDiver looks about right for the default AI settings in V.

It is worth repeating (I've mentioned this before in the forums) that RFear becomes a negative under learn/cheat AI. There are a number of midgame monsters that dilute nasty spells (e.g., nether bolt) with the harmless Fear spell. Turning on learn/cheat AI means RFear makes these monsters more dangerous. [The Fear spell simply gets deleted from their casting repertoire when RFear is known to the monster. Just switch to ranged or spell attacks.]

Putting Hold Life ahead of Might is justifiable on annoyance factor, if not objectively correct. [Currently, Extra Shots dominates Might so completely for non-Rangers that Might is practically less important than its objective utility until the very late game, when egos providing both start appearing.]

The importance of regeneration for a slow-diving spellcaster varies considerably. (It becomes important when it enables charging a buff spell to ~9,900 normal-speed turn duration, then drops off in importance as total mana becomes capable of supporting utility spells with minimal recovery time. The combat utility of regeneration for spellcasters is similar to this curve.)
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Old June 14, 2008, 23:46   #52
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Thanks for your thoughts, guys, very helpful and enlightening!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Things vary, are not independent, but here is my try.
Sure, but recognition of variations due to user options, choices or circumstances can be treated at a later, more detailed level - at this stage it needs to be more basic.

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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Poison is weaker brand than fire.
Really? I presume that's based on knowledge of damage dealt - I don't have that, but I have found poison much the most effective branding so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Paralysis and life draining belong with abilities, not resists.
I disagree - these both resist things being done to the character, whereas abilities are things that the character does. Resist = passive, ability - active

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
You should forget all that and go with the order in defines.h.
Well, I was trying to avoid looking at source code Also, I think PowerDiver's list is better than defines.h as the latter relegates confusion and blindness to a lower position than their depth of effect seems to justify, which PD's list seems to recognise.

I think the abilities list also looks sensible, although I'd say that having shots and blows adjacent on the list would make more sense to a new player, and doesn't require too much distortion of what might be the most accurate ranking

I disagree about this having to be specific to a user guide - you have to have /some/ order in a user guide, and as it's merely confusing to have one order in one place and a different order in another, why not get it right now?
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Old June 15, 2008, 01:10   #53
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<poison brand vs fire/other brands>
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
Really? I presume that's based on knowledge of damage dealt - I don't have that, but I have found poison much the most effective branding so far
Damage done is the same, but much more monsters are resistant to poison.
Probably the least amount of monsters are resistant to acid, and those that do are mostly ones you don't want to fight anyway, so acid is probably the most useful brand.
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Old June 15, 2008, 04:34   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
I disagree about this having to be specific to a user guide - you have to have /some/ order in a user guide, and as it's merely confusing to have one order in one place and a different order in another, why not get it right now?
Because the object info code will be done according to the order in defines.h, and a user guide should be consistent. That's also why FA is an ability [or power, whatever you want to call it]. It would be *really* bad to call it something else when an object that is listed with a random ability [e.g. blessed weapons] can have it, but an object listed with a random resist [elvenkind armor] cannot. I expect some of my obj info display preferences will be making it into 3.1, and I will lobby for the rest sooner or later, so hopefully this will become significant soon.

In other words, defines.h is by definition the "right" order, and the separation of resists from other stuff is also a matter of definition in defines.h.
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Old June 15, 2008, 10:05   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
In other words, defines.h is by definition the "right" order, and the separation of resists from other stuff is also a matter of definition in defines.h.
defines.h is the current order - doesn't mean it's logical or consistent. I don't think it's either
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Old June 15, 2008, 12:37   #56
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The issue here is the in-game text was written to have flavour. definate trend lately is to get away from strict flavour aspects of the game ("why are there so many cure potions", "forbid selling", "general store has set stocking", hidden artifact features etc which are all about the game having a slightly role playing foundation rather than a wargaming one) to more "mechanics is king".

For pure readability the tables would win. But the spoiler text comes straight out of the same in-game text. So to implement tables would move the *ID* text right away from being a flavoursome part of the game (which admittedly was written in a way to allow re-use of text based on flags).

A lot of what has been discussed here lately has me keeping V3.0.5. Many of the changes lately seem to be oriented around keeping the game interesting / challenging for repeat winners. I don't have a problem with that, I'll just keep the version I'm comfortable with.
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Old June 15, 2008, 14:05   #57
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Garrie

Perhaps I should clarify that there will be separate information tables in the UG for:
a) flavour descriptions of artifacts
b) stuff that you can learn with Identify
c) stuff that you learn with *Identify*

If people want to go ahead and read all of it, they can - but it will be signposted clearly that it's spoiler info, so those who want to find out for themselves, can.

WillAsher:
you're conflating three levels of info there, and, while they can't be entirely separated, I need to think how useful it is to use a combined base like that to determine signficaince for a new player, as well as or opposed to, an experienced user (such as those who tend to post on here!).

The three levels are:
how much damage does it do?
how often is that damage going to be reduced by resistance in creatures I encounter?
how often am I going to choose to fight creatures with such resistances, once encountered?

For a new player, the third is probably almost completely irrelevant, as most new players will tend to fight everything. The second is somewhat irrelevant, but will become relevant much more quickly.
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Old June 15, 2008, 14:21   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrie View Post
The issue here is the in-game text was written to have flavour. definate trend lately is to get away from strict flavour aspects of the game ("why are there so many cure potions", "forbid selling", "general store has set stocking", hidden artifact features etc which are all about the game having a slightly role playing foundation rather than a wargaming one) to more "mechanics is king".

For pure readability the tables would win. But the spoiler text comes straight out of the same in-game text. So to implement tables would move the *ID* text right away from being a flavoursome part of the game (which admittedly was written in a way to allow re-use of text based on flags).

A lot of what has been discussed here lately has me keeping V3.0.5. Many of the changes lately seem to be oriented around keeping the game interesting / challenging for repeat winners. I don't have a problem with that, I'll just keep the version I'm comfortable with.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not a repeat winner by any means, but I'm finding the game more enjoyable with the changes I'm making. When 3.1 is out, I'd appreciate it if you played it just to see what it's like-- I'm not sure there's much point in changing the game at all if most people aren't interested in playing newer versions.


Also, you should realise that forbidding selling will always be an option, not a necessity, and the general store set stocking could be easily grounded in realism (think about it, when did your local supermarket ever buy anything back from you? they also tend to have fairly good stock control). Sorting out "too much junk" is something which applies equally to all players; it's a tedium-reducer.
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:10   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
1. I'm sorry to hear that.
2. When 3.1 is out, I'd appreciate it if you played it just to see what it's like-- I'm not sure there's much point in changing the game at all if most people aren't interested in playing newer versions.


3. Also, you should realise that forbidding selling will always be an option, not a necessity
4. and the general store set stocking could be easily grounded in realism
(5.think about it, when did your local supermarket ever buy anything back from you? they also tend to have fairly good stock control).
6. Sorting out "too much junk" is something which applies equally to all players; it's a tedium-reducer.
Sorry to edit your post like that but:
1. Honestly, Thanks for the appology. But I know you are developing for a community - hopefully overall the community is appreciating the changes (forum posts seem to show that they are)
2. I will give it a go. I have some version since tried 3.0.5, and not seen a reason to change yet. I would hope the difference between 3.0.x and 3.0.y is a lot less than the difference between 3.0.99999 and 3.1.0
3. I had not realised it was only to be an option. In fact I am getting a huge impression that a great deal of work was being done to reduce the number of options (and as someone who plays with auto scum both on and off, and with preserve both on and off, .... that is another seeming reason to not change versions)
4. I don't think you can compare a 21st century supermarket with a middle ages "general store" (as if such a thing existed). hell, even in the current century if you go to the right (wrong) parts of the world there are frequent seasonal variations in food supply. It's all about communications and transport: http://lirneasia.net/2007/05/mobile-...n-fish-markets
5. see 4. If the supermarket is actually a farmers market, and I drove in with a truck load of watermelons (think: @ walks in with 99 flasks of oil) when they have none at all... sure they will buy them. Where do you think farmers markets get their stock from anyway? (by which I mean, real farmers markets which do still exist if you look in the right places)
6. I like !salt water. I like broken sticks. I like canine skeletons and I miss that they aren't there. I don't expect that every item I find when I kill a thousand year old dragon will be useful to me... some of it will be the crappy equipment which lead to the demise of the last hundred poor saps that tried killing it. Hell, I even play with "auto pickup" turned on until I get to DL25 or so.

There is a difference between "consensus" and "unaminous". But hey, you're the maintainer: go ahead and change things. Overall the community will like the changes or bay for your blood!
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:17   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesDoyle View Post
Garrie

Perhaps I should clarify that there will be separate information tables in the UG for:
a) flavour descriptions of artifacts
b) stuff that you can learn with Identify
c) stuff that you learn with *Identify*

If people want to go ahead and read all of it, they can - but it will be signposted clearly that it's spoiler info, so those who want to find out for themselves, can.
My understanding is that all of the above in current spoilers comes straight out of the source. And that in the source it is all "flavourful" / narrative text. The Information screen would look a bit unusual if it looks like:

The blade has fire running along it's length
1d6 (+4,+12)
------------
|Resist Fire |
------------
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