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Old June 27, 2020, 00:31   #11
Ingwe Ingweron
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Originally Posted by Petoften View Post
OK, what the heck. Found a ring of the mouse, +2 dex. It makes my dagger go from 43 damage to 17 damage!

clearly the (0, -8) does something bad. Is that (damage, to hit) or what?

Guess I'll be dropping that.
The first number (0,... is to hit adjustment, and the second number ... -8) is to damage adjustment. Rings of the Mouse can be useful for stealth, and in certain situations, or when you have a better weapon and can absorb the damage reduction more easily.
“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
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Old July 9, 2020, 02:47   #12
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Main gauches are better than daggers.

There is no simple answer to when to use a scroll of deep descent. It's purely situational. Sometimes it's just what you need. Sometimes it's just what you don't need. All depends on how things are going at your current depth.

Usually reading a scroll of deep descent means you need to be super careful when entering the dungeon 5 levels down. It's definitely fun to read them in the early game as a warrior, though. I always hope to read one early when playing a strong warrior char because a warrior can handle most things without any significant upgrades all the way down to about level 13 or 14.
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Old July 9, 2020, 05:15   #13
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the way that Angband works, DL40 has the same stuff as DL90 .. in a way.

DL40 is pretty much the sweet spot for a character. The following considerations have brought me to this conclusion.
1. there's no undead.
Sure, you get the occasional wight, but no spam of passwall life-draining, stat-draining mobs like Liches.
2. you can kill pretty much everything. It's not much XP, but it's free XP. Even trolls can be a good source of XP if you kill 300 of them.
3. when a vault is generated, the items inside will be considerably better than what your normal drops are, but the mobs guarding them will not be ridiculous - generally a couple TO and the gear is yours.
4. abundance of stat potions.
5. also, you won't rely on consumables to get through normal fights.
6. pits are easy to clear.
if you get, say, a giants pit, it won't have any titans in it, maybe one cyclop. Pits are a great source of "good" drops, e.g !Heal, !Spd, wands of TO, that stuff that relies more on number of mobs killed rather than inherent depth.

eventually you'll be all kitted out and you'll grow bored, at which point the best thing to do is to spam half a dozen Deep Descent and get ASAP to DL98. But, there is nothing on DL98 that isn't also present on DL40 .. just, not as often. The only real reason to go to the lower levels - aside from the obvious need to get to Morgoth - is to kill higher uniques.

I've always considered scrolls of DD to be, essentially, cursed items. Because the way they present themselves, early on in the first few DLs, and they dump you at *at least* DL6, which most new characters cannot cope with. During the first 30-ish CLs you really want to take your time, and build us your arsenal of basic necessities, a weapon with decent all-round damage, a good launcher, ESP, FA, SI, rPois, rNexus, pConf, pBlind, without which it's really not advisable to go any lower than DL30, as you can get into situations where you are no longer in control. And also, obviously, a stash of CCW, RLL, plenty of Spd, a few ?TS, and anything that gives you more basic speed - mostly, because of the really high damage multiplier you get with the first +Spd values.

Once you got your kit, you start to look for the *same* stuff, but better. So, for instance, replace your longbow of power with a longbow of extra shots AND some seeker ammo. Replace your lanthern of sight with a arkenstone. Replace your weapon of gondolin with a high damage, multi-slay artifact. You dod this by hovering around DL40/50, depending on how well built your character is.

When that stage is complete, the only things which will really change your game are high-end artifacts. By this time you should be able to TO with a 5% spell failure at most, have decent stealth and a whole bunch of resists, so navigating the dungeon, even greater vaults, is fairly easy. So, no reason to be at DL50 anymore, when DL98 is just the same. The only real difference is the undead pits, and their tendency to spit out hordes of annoying passwall mobs .. but really, you should be avoiding these, not fighting them.
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Old July 9, 2020, 14:42   #14
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But your strategy is *boring* Sky! :P

That being said, from a pure win-per-character perspective, I'm not going to disagree with anything Sky said. And when I'm playing melee characters especially, I do often hit a wall between DL45 and 50, and have to back up for a few floors. But usually going back up five floors, and then back down is enough for me to accumulate the experience and loot I need to go deeper.

Personally, I prefer to steadily descend. Hit the downstairs, fire off magic mapping, treasure detection, monster detection, pick up any loot nearby, kill anything convenient, and hit the nearest down stairs. I'll go down immediatey if there isn't much loot nearby, or lots of nasties. I almost never use scrolls of Deep Descent unless I got *really* lucky (like, oh, finding Ringil on a young gold dragon on dungeon floor 32).

I will occasionally clear a level if I'm finding lots of loot, and/or lots of high-exp-low-damage monsters. I usually avoid vaults before the endgame unless I'm playing something sneaky. Large crowds of powerful monsters make me nervous.
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Old July 9, 2020, 15:05   #15
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Something that I have always found interesting is the different approaches different players take when playing angband (or other roguelikes, even aarpgs, though those are different in that loot is usually the end goal, not actually 'wining').

It has to do with what peoples personal definitions of 'winning' are. Clearly, there is only one way to literally win the game and get the WINNER tag on your character.

However, for me, and some others I have discussed it with in the past, I don't actually care that much about actually winning the game. Which isn't to suggest I don't care at all, but it's the process which is far more entertaining than the actual result. As such, I do not play 'perfectly' or even always 'carefully', I am more interested in pushing the limits I see to see if I can overcome things which others would just ignore or avoid or run away from.

Not completely suicidally of course, but when I find a greater undead pit I want to see if I can clear it without dying, and the cost in resources to do so doesn't matter to me because I'm not actually prepping for the final battle since my goal isn't actually to even get there.

With such a mentality I realize that I am fare more interested in the mechanics of aarpgs in that sense (though I usually don't bother with hard core characters). However, the draw of the turn based style is what keeps me coming back to angband and various variants and various other roguelikes.

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent, but in one sense it's advice for players, especially new players, to understand what their actual motivation for playing the game is. Sometimes it's enough to just play to learn mechanics and build up the monster memory and find all the cool artifacts (assuming not playing randarts). Winning? Well winning is very hard for most players, even experienced players. And often the best path to winning is what many will consider to be borning. Hanging out at 2000' for ages? Yeah it's definitely smart, and it's definitely the best path to winning (leaving out other goals like speed runs), but my god, I can't take it.

To each their own should always apply, however, that means there is often no right answer, at least to questions like 'how fast should I dive' because that really depends on other considerations. Otherwise, we'd all just hang out at 50' farming worms or whatever breeders we can find until we hit whatever level where the time payoff to get the next one is longer worth it. But then we'd just move to the next depth where we can find the next higher value breeder to do the same with...
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Old July 9, 2020, 19:25   #16
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eh, all you say is true, Licker. It is however useful to know the pitfalls that you can get in through diving. For instance, i recently told him "get a ring of STR to avoid being drained".
Not half hour after having said this, i accidentally drunk a potion of Exp and then almost immediately got drained. Had STR 13 for hours, desperately trying to find a mushroom of Vigor, or a potion of Brawn, but no.
If i dropped nearly everything from my gear, i still had base Spd -1.

But, as you say, nobody tells you how YOU must play the game. If you want to dive, by all means dive. If you want to grind, then grind. If you get bored and you want to see if you can tank that dracolich .. ok, maybe not that.
"i can take this dracolich"
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Old July 9, 2020, 23:04   #17
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Oh yes, I greatly appreciate your approach and information Sky. Even if I choose not to follow it

It's a game, people should find out the ways in which they enjoy it and go with that. Certainly understanding sound tactics and basic practices is good. And then it's just down to experimenting with what really helps you to enjoy playing.

I have in the past (though back then it was Zangband which was my preferred variant) done as many 'cheesy' things as I possibly could to maximize my chances at beating the game. Once I started be able to routinely beat that game (or develop characters capeable of beating it) I began to lose interest.


Play it how you like, but good advice is always appreciated!
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Old July 10, 2020, 17:39   #18
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Don't the "drops" get better after DL40? DL40 isn't "peak drop" is it? or does it just enable "peak drop".

Or is it more that "everything you need to tackle DL98 can be found on DL40"?

Because I'm in the early 50's and finding many dangerous things that I haven't seen before.

For example, I've just discovered Time Hounds. Which, I guess, drain EVERYTHING.

"Oh, good to know!"
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Old July 11, 2020, 00:42   #19
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I've also been curious about this, though I'm a bit scared to learn because every exploit makes me love the game a little less. Is DL 40 really the sweet spot level?
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Old July 11, 2020, 00:46   #20
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Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
I've also been curious about this, though I'm a bit scared to learn because every exploit makes me love the game a little less. Is DL 40 really the sweet spot level?
Drops should get better until DL100, really.
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