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Old March 28, 2011, 23:08   #1
Derakon
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Rogue spell selection

I'm playing a dwarf rogue right now, and noticing some weird aspects of the spell selection. For example:

* Nothing in book 2 is worthwhile. They're all too hard, too expensive, too late (c.f. Spear of Light), or too important to accept a 5% failure rate (c.f. Teleport Self). Speaking of which, it's a bit weird that Teleport Self isn't replicated in Mordenkainen's, like the priest spell repetition.
* Satisfy Hunger is the second-hardest spell in the town spellbooks. The hardest is Lesser Recharging. An 18/100 INT, level-40 rogue still has a failure rate over 20% for Satisfy Hunger. Yes, this is typically a spell you don't absolutely have to cast right this second, but it's really weird that it's so hard. Why isn't it easier than Haste Self at least?
* Kelek's Grimoire has one spell rogues can learn: Bedlam, the non-damaging confusion ball. I get that rogues don't get (good) attack magic, but it's a bit of a kick in the pants that the only spell rogues can learn from the ultimate spellbook is the only spell in that book that is basically worthless.
* Raal's Tome of Destruction is similarly not-very-worthwhile, though there it mostly comes down to the spells the rogues get having horrible casting costs and failure rates. One or the other would make them occasionally worth considering (and thus dedicating an inventory slot to) but not both.
* Meanwhile, Mordenkainen's and Tenser's are both solid spellbooks, and I'm sure Resistances would be useful if I didn't have elemental-immunity randarts coming out of my ears.

Basically, I don't get the philosophy behind the spell selection and cost/failure rate decisions for Kelek's and Raal's. There's no sense in having attack spells that the caster can't use reliably and/or frequently (at least one of the two), since the caster in this case has perfectly functional weapons they can use instead. And status ailment spells are notoriously bad. So why would a rogue ever carry those books? The ultimate spellbook just doesn't feel very ultimate in this case. Raal's of course I wasn't really worried about in any case, but it'd be nice to be able to successfully cast spells from it more than 1 in 3 times, and be able to try more than thrice before having to rest.

It's not that gameplay is too hard here, mind you. It's just weird.
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Old March 28, 2011, 23:37   #2
bulian
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I agree with pretty much everything in this post and normally squelch immediately MB6 and MB9 with rogues. Basically I play them as self buffing warriors with a few escapes. I tend to stash MB8 at home and carry it on DL99-100 or use it in town.

In the comp 99 game, I didn't carry MB2.

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Speaking of which, it's a bit weird that Teleport Self isn't replicated in Mordenkainen's, like the priest spell repetition.
I second this and suggested this a while ago, along with general reorganization of the mage spells (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3900), though there wasn't any interest in it at the time.
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Old March 27, 2018, 17:44   #3
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I'd concur ... the most useful spell in the book, pound-for-pound, is "detect objects." I've finally got a rogue to a half-decent level (GL: 39, DL 60) and the spells I've used so far, hard, are the detect traps/doors/stairs; detect objects; detect monsters followed by resistances (remember, the spells add to item resistances) and identify.

But the DO is useful. I have now come to bounce around the levels looking for specific things. Right now, I'm stocking up on *healing* potions and mass banishment scrolls by sneaking about and plucking the unguarded (unheld) goodies.

Why not make a separate book for rogues? I dunno - seems like an idea.
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Old March 27, 2018, 21:07   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moving Pictures View Post
I'd concur ... the most useful spell in the book, pound-for-pound, is "detect objects." I've finally got a rogue to a half-decent level (GL: 39, DL 60) and the spells I've used so far, hard, are the detect traps/doors/stairs; detect objects; detect monsters followed by resistances (remember, the spells add to item resistances) and identify.

But the DO is useful. I have now come to bounce around the levels looking for specific things. Right now, I'm stocking up on *healing* potions and mass banishment scrolls by sneaking about and plucking the unguarded (unheld) goodies.

Why not make a separate book for rogues? I dunno - seems like an idea.
There is currently a rework of the classes going on which does precisely this.
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Old March 27, 2018, 21:35   #5
Estie
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Keleks: this is the ultimate spellbook, reserved for mages.
Raals: this (supposedly) has the best offensive spells, again rogues cant apply.

Satisfy hunger is too hard, I agree, but otherwise the spell selection makes perfect sense to me. Having a spell greyed out or too difficult/not useful is the same thing. Would you be happier if there were no castable spells at all for rogues from those books ? As long as youre not tempted to carry them - why bother ?

As for rework of classes, that one changes everything and is hardly a fix for vanilla issues.
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Old March 27, 2018, 22:33   #6
Derakon
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I want to take a moment to note that this thread was created seven years ago. I don't feel strongly about this topic currently.
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Old March 27, 2018, 23:27   #7
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I guess this counts as a win for Necromancy, then?
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Old March 28, 2018, 01:51   #8
Estie
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I want to take a moment to note that this thread was created seven years ago. I don't feel strongly about this topic currently.
What, you change your mind so quickly ?
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Old March 28, 2018, 11:41   #9
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you do get TS and cure poison (which is useful at lower levels) in Mage2, and while Mage1 is more useful due to Light, DO, Det Stairs and Det Monsters (which you also get in Mage3), i would rather throw away Mage1 than to be without TS.

You do get Shock Wave off of Raal's, but by the time you can cast it, you can just melee those mobs.

I'm ok with Kelek's only having Bedlam; i don't use Kelek's anyway, and i don't use Bedlam even when i play Mage. The idea is that Rogues cannot manage the more difficult spells, and that seems fair.

I do like to carry Tenser's for Hero and Berserk.

oh i see .. 7 years.
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