Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 1, 2018, 01:53   #11
luneya
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 185
luneya is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post
So far, it was mostly the frequency of the curses.


So far as I can, both are the exact same identical rubble tile graphic.
Now there's your problem. You're playing tiles. Nick only does the coding; nobody's actively doing development on the tilesets. Switch back to standard ASCII, and everything works perfectly.
luneya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2018, 03:04   #12
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 2,951
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Add me to the chorus that traps are too common by about a factor of ten or so. I'm not sure I completely agree with Derakon about traps always being visible, but I'd like to try that approach and see how it works.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2018, 06:57   #13
jevansau
Adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 137
jevansau is on a distinguished road
I'd agree about the traps being way too common, especially outside vaults. An average of < 1 per level sounds about right

Even within vaults, I'd prefer just a very few strategically placed ones, and given that I can see greatly reducing magical trap disablement. Maybe just a somewhat rare scroll, so that it is a real decision between a scarce resource and risking setting off the trap.
jevansau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2018, 12:17   #14
Sky
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: somewhere on the south coast
Age: 45
Posts: 1,037
Sky is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egavactip View Post

1. New Identity scheme.

2. Curses.

3. Traps. This is just broken. I hate it with a passion. There are an order of magnitude too many traps. My character was constantly running into traps. That's not FUN, that's just ANNOYING. The game is not served in any way by this. I've been in vaults with less traps than a typical dungeon area now. This really needs to go. This is pretty much a dealbreaker for me.

4. Level layouts. The single thing about the talked about changes that appealed to me, the new level configurations, unexpectedly turned out to be something I greatly disliked. This new method of generating levels does not generate good levels. It takes far too much time to explore these levels. I would like there to be a game option to exclude these levels.

5. Terrain. I did not get far enough down to encounter lava but I don't think I would have a problem with it. I did, however, have an issue with the two types of rubble--passable and impassable. My problem was not with the fact of two different types but the fact that they don't look different from each other. They need to have a different look.

6. Breath. I don't have a problem with the change here but the animation is unnecessary.

7. Out of line of sight doors: I don't like the fact that you can no longer see when doors open or close. That was actually a cool part of the game.

Overall, I was not happy with these changes, as you can see. Collectively, they had the effect of making Angband less FUN to play, while I could see no commensurate gain.

The worst feature of all is the new trap system. The old system was great; this system is annoying at best.

I haven't yet decided if I will refuse to play this version, but that is honestly the way I am leaning right now. I think some of these changes need to be reverted or to be made optional.
1. new identify is better. it just is. wait until you are down at DL70 and tell me if you still want to read a scroll of identify to ID 300+ garbage items.

2. Nick needs to make sure that cursed items are not [2,+0] {??} because this gives away that they are cursed. All good items are at least +1. Maybe an item that has a minus value, could look as if it had the same value as plus, until the curse is found out.

3. traps seem fine, no particular observations on them.

4. level layout is indeed more complex and thus harder. but, better. the old "six boxes with corridors" was simplistic.

5. this is probably due to the tiles showing the same icon for both.

6. i strongly agree.
the issue here is that, if a hound is 1 square away from you, it takes 40ms to animate that breath. if the same hound is 10 squares away, then there are 10 40ms animations, at half a second per breath, per hound, this takes many multiples of forever.

7. doors. if you can't see them, you can't see them.
you can still hear them though ...
__________________
"i can take this dracolich"
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2018, 15:56   #15
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,255
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Add me to the chorus that traps are too common by about a factor of ten or so. I'm not sure I completely agree with Derakon about traps always being visible, but I'd like to try that approach and see how it works.
I got the idea from Dungeons of Dredmor, which is a flawed roguelike in a lot of ways, but had pretty good traps IMO. You had a "trap sight" skill that started at 1 tile, so you wouldn't notice traps until you were right next to them unless you had boosted the skill somehow (but you would always notice them once adjacent to them, unless you were holding down a movement key...). You also had a disarm skill; if it exceeded the level of the trap, then you would automatically disarm it on walking onto the trap, otherwise you had a chance to not trigger it. If you did trigger it, it would only ever trigger once -- all traps were one-shot.

The second part of making interesting traps is putting them where they force the player to make decisions. Mostly that means putting them near where monsters are. A trap in an intersection of an anonymous corridor 200' from the closest monster is not especially interesting, unless a) the trap is fairly dangerous on its own, and b) the player cannot easily bypass it (e.g. by breaking down walls). So I could see an argument for "unaccompanied" traps in the early game, but I'd argue they should become less common as the game progresses.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2018, 19:02   #16
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,502
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I think the closed door mechanic adds a lot of complexity for little gain. It's not bad, just extra code. I feel the same about the object pickup code, especially since it is the #1 cause of crashes.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2, 2018, 01:18   #17
Ramelandil
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5
Ramelandil is on a distinguished road
Long-time off-and-on player, short-time lurker, first-time poster here. (Hi!)

1. I do prefer the new ID system to the old one, in large part because later in the game classes without an ID spell used to need stacks of ?ID / _Perception for any serious dungeon visit. Pseudo-ID helped a little, but it was limited to the number of things you could carry on your person while you waited for it to trigger. I do agree that it's a little weird instantly knowing the "pluses" of everything, so maybe that's where pseudo-ID could come back in -- after a while of wielding or wearing the item it would become clear just how much acc/dam/AC/etc. it's providing. Not being able to carry flavor / rune data across lives like you can monster memory is a little weird, too, but I don't know what can be done about that, because making them persist effectively forces birth_know_* on after your first decently deep dive. Maybe if there were hundreds and hundreds of flavors and runes...but TMJ is arguably still a problem as it is.

2. I like the more flavorful, and arguably even sometimes useful, curses, and I definitely don't miss the "sticky" curse. I may tire of seeing them more frequently, but I don't think it's weird that they're common. This stuff has been lying around in the stronghold of the Enemy for who knows how long -- Morgoth's malevolence has surely twisted some of it to his ends.

3. I never did like traps. Not having to bounce on the 's' key all the time everywhere until you get reliable means of detection is better ... but not having reliable means of detection is worse. And I think there might be a bug with them on DL1; I've noticed that my starting characters, no matter what class, invariably bumble into *all* of them on that floor, but as soon as I get down to DL2 I actually have a chance to see them before I trigger them. Or is this part of the "disincentivize farming DL1" package?

4. I think the "caverns" level type is new? My 3.x experience is years old, but I don't remember them. Anyway, they're a neat idea, but as a practical matter I just want to leave them immediately unless I have ESP, 'cause it's just too scary to be wandering around when enemies can see me from 300' away but I can't see them. If Light Area effects a) had a larger radius and b) didn't automatically wake up everything(?), that might improve things.

The rest I don't feel strongly about, but I do want to mention something from another recent thread. It seems to me that the shops, even the Black Market, never have anything interesting to buy anymore, just some basic supplies, a few unremarkable magic items, and maybe the occasional stat potion. This makes the birth_no_selling question largely moot and removes the one exciting possibility from the otherwise boring but necessary (unless you're good enough to play ironman) "recall and restock" phases. I'm not saying we need the days of megaAU Whatevers of Speed back, but at this point I'm relegating $ and diggers to the "stuff you grow out of in the early game" category. Maybe that's intended?
Ramelandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2, 2018, 04:51   #18
luneya
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 185
luneya is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramelandil View Post
Long-time off-and-on player, short-time lurker, first-time poster here. (Hi!)

1. I do prefer the new ID system to the old one, in large part because later in the game classes without an ID spell used to need stacks of ?ID / _Perception for any serious dungeon visit. Pseudo-ID helped a little, but it was limited to the number of things you could carry on your person while you waited for it to trigger. I do agree that it's a little weird instantly knowing the "pluses" of everything, so maybe that's where pseudo-ID could come back in -- after a while of wielding or wearing the item it would become clear just how much acc/dam/AC/etc. it's providing. Not being able to carry flavor / rune data across lives like you can monster memory is a little weird, too, but I don't know what can be done about that, because making them persist effectively forces birth_know_* on after your first decently deep dive. Maybe if there were hundreds and hundreds of flavors and runes...but TMJ is arguably still a problem as it is.
A pseudo-id system for attack bonuses and ac would be utterly pointless. Even in pre-rune-id Angband, all you needed to do to test a weapon or armor for those properties was to walk up to some suitably contemptible monster, let it hit you to reveal AC, and then kill it to reveal the offensive stats--no id spell or even pseudo required. Eliminating pointless tests of that sort was one of the main motivations behind the switch to the new id system.
luneya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2, 2018, 05:18   #19
Ramelandil
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5
Ramelandil is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by luneya View Post
A pseudo-id system for attack bonuses and ac would be utterly pointless. Even in pre-rune-id Angband, all you needed to do to test a weapon or armor for those properties was to walk up to some suitably contemptible monster, let it hit you to reveal AC, and then kill it to reveal the offensive stats--no id spell or even pseudo required. Eliminating pointless tests of that sort was one of the main motivations behind the switch to the new id system.
My apologies, then. As I said, it's been a while since I played pre-rune-id, so I didn't recall that it was automatic -- for some reason, I had a memory of having to do the calculation myself!
Ramelandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2, 2018, 05:27   #20
Grotug
Knight
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 840
Grotug is on a distinguished road
With all due respect to Egavactip, there is a common experience that people have when a beloved thing is changed and when they feel it is just not the same as it used to be and so is less fun. I wonder how much the changes are really, actually bad that they are causing less fun, and how much the real issue is that Angband feels that it is no longer what it was?

Level design: Since the 3.4.1 days (which I believe is the first version I played), the levels are soo soo soo much improved. There are so many interesting, atmospheric rooms now. It's very impressive. I can't say I've really noticed levels are harder to navigate than any other versions; the small maze levels are still annoying, but they always were, and I'd probably complain if they were removed because I'm so used to them being part of Angband, but if they were to show up less often I would not complain.

There is a level archetype I would like to see added based on the design of a single room that I stumbled upon once upon an adventure:







So basically the whole level would be laid out just like this single room (so think of this room as a miniature of what the level would look like) with some specific details added/changed: The level would be roughly circular just like the image of the room here, with the outside rim of the 'circle' being made up of a corridor (just like in the image, but 5 to 9 dots in width instead of one dot).

Connected to the outer walls of this main, circular corridor would be small passageways connected at various intervals. Some of these small passageways might be connected by small caverns, some would be connected by just a single-width corridor and some would be dead ends. Maybe one of them would be a small vault (shaped just like other passageways/small caverns). I imagine there'd be between 7 and 11 of these passageways/caverns connected to the outside of the outer main corridor.

Connected to the inside wall of the main outer circular corridor would be short passageways that would open up to a very large cavern with various compartmentalized rooms/caverns inside, around which a main corridor/cavern would interweave (just like in the image). Maybe inside somewhere there'd be a pool of lava or a lake of fire (there could be a large area of the inner cavern where there would be no compartmentalized rooms but instead a lake of fire).

Overall the goal of the level would be for it to have a very distinct feel and sense of place (as many of the new ones do) and be easy to navigate. I've long wanted to see something like this added to Angband's level archetypes but had trouble pinning down the details of how it should be, and stumbling upon this miniature version of it in a room was pretty much spot on to what had been banging around in my head, wanting to get out. I'd be happy to try to build it if someone can point me to how it is done.

On being wise: I complain about Angband, A LOT, but I'm not sure removing the things I complain about would make the game better. If acid and disenchantment were nullified would the game really be better overall? Sure, I'd be screaming at my laptop screen a lot less, but the game would probably be a fair bit more boring and less dynamic and I'd probably get bored with it faster than I do presently (have I mentioned the endgame is boring? Might that be because nothing can kill me, I always am sure to have rDisenchant and often have pFire/pCold?).

I used to complain about hellhounds, now I sort of wish they were as terrible as they used to be, as I sort of miss the terror they would instill in me when I'd blunder into a hallway full of them. People's opinions are not always wise (ie. their ability to objectively see all the pros and cons irrespective of their fond experiences of their first-version-of-angband-they-played-bias and the cosmic balance that the good things and the bad things keep in the ordering of the overall Angband experience) and us fickle folk need to be heeded with great care.

Frodo tells Gandalf he wished Gollum had been killed (so the ring wouldn't have found its way to The Shire) and Gandalf reminds him that even the very wise cannot see all ends. Basically, it is the fate of us all that we hate and love Angband, and will never be rid of our need for it. But the 'hate' is an integral part of the Angband experience! We look fondly back on the good ol' days, but we hated things about Angband more then, than we do today; yet some of us seem to think that they loved Angband more back then. Hmm....

What I miss: The only real change I miss was the removal of {ego} {splendid} {special} from unID'd objects, because when I first played Angband those tags were always super exciting to find because it meant an object wasn't just magical, it had further special powers. Is it bad for the game that they were removed? Of course a new player wouldn't miss them, and there isn't really anthing intrinsically good about those tags, but because that's how I first played Angband, for me losing them is something I miss. I also sort of miss finding vaults on DL13 and I'm not terribly fond of artifacts being so rare for the first 28 dungeon levels (or the nerfing of Smeagol and Wormtongue drops).

Traps: It's been a long road, but I've slowly adapted to the annoyingness of traps and I now can see that they make my dungeon crawling experience a richer, fuller, and more dynamic one (Hey, it's hard adding dynamism to a turn based ascii run and gun game!). Now I'm nearly as experienced at handling traps as Indiana Jones is at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark (even if the @ I'm controlling is as bad at them as Indy's guides were), and I think they make the game more interesting and dynamic since as a H/T Warrior I am stumbling upon them regularly. It's kind of fun to learn that I don't always have to cure a malady of a trap, and that I can sometimes blunder my way through whatever they did to me. And I like that I detect them sometimes, but sometimes I don't; and I like the problem that they present to me: do I risk the acid trap to get at the red * down yonder hallway? Mend my life! My precious AC!

I am glad that trap detection was removed. It was tedious and uninteresting detecting all the time and a bit silly to know where the traps are. Kinda removes the purpose of traps, which is to surprise the player and put them into a spot of trouble. While I used to think the frequency of them could be toned down, I have gotten quite used to the number of traps there are now. They make navigating the dungeon more interesting and challenging and dynamic since you can't always get where you want to go if you don't want to risk a trap, and I like that a precious inventory slot needs to be weighed as to whether I carry disable traps or not.

I also find I often manually disable them even when I have a rod since the activation of the rod/wand is annoying. A suggestion: if there is not a monster in view, then objects of mapping/detection/disabling etc should retry automatically until they succeed unless a monster comes into awareness of @ The lack of a {more} message when the rod fails means I always manually attempt whenever the rod fails.

Another point I'd like to make is pointless {more} messages. I love the activation on Cammithrim but I don't use it because I have to get through two {more} messages each time I activate it. This is absurd. I just want it to zap zap zap seamlessly without any information about what it did (it zapped!).

Traps always visible seems silly. The element of surprise is what makes traps, well, traps, though I am willing to admit that perhaps expecting traps in Raiders of the Lost Ark to translate well to a turn based ascii game may be a little bit unrealistic. but I think Angband handles them pretty well given the formfactor of the game.

I'd like to see some new, more dangerous traps for the late game, like earthquake trap; or a whirling blade one that actually does an amount of damage that is scary when you have 832hp. I definitely feel peoples' pain about traps when playing weaker classes; traps are another reason why I like HT Warrior; he has the hitpoints to basically never get dead by them (though I die often enough from summoning traps).

New Curses: I don't really miss the sticky curses. I like the new curses. I especially like that some of them are actually really useful and a cursed item can be better than the same item without the curse: namely the conduct electricity +20AC curse. This is great to find for the first 27 levels (at least for a warrior type it is). I do not think the curses are too mean. If you don't want to risk teleban, then don't wear a cursed item, no one's forcing you to take the risk! Taking such a risk should have the chance of dire circumstances. I have been quite amused a few times when getting nabbed by the anti-teleportation curse. I quite like curses how they are, and think some of them should be more detrimental (I can't say I notice much penalty from the air-swing curse, for example).

Shops: I'd like to see a move back to where shops didn't reliably have unlimited of certain items. I think this is not in the right spirit of the game. It's fine if certain things have a lot, but 40 all the time? The only thing that I can see this is reasonable is average ammunition. I'd also like to see book 4 be something that is only sometimes in the shop or somehting like: book 1 90% of the time there are four or more in the shop. Book 2, 85% of the time there are 3 or more, book 3, 80% there are two or more, book 4 60% of the time there are one or more.

I'd like to see a larger variation of useful items in the shops, but with less reliability you'll find what you need (_TS is often in the shop, which is good, but Angband would be more interesting for a seasoned player like myself who maybe wants it to be a bit more challenging, if I have to make do with some less reliable escapes like earthquakes or what have you. Overall, I do not think the power level of the shops needs to be increased, just perhaps the reliability/variability of certain things. I'd like word of recall to be a resource I have to manage, rather than just buy as many as like as often as I like. It's a very powerful spell, it shouldn't be infinitely available in the shops! This is just symptomatic of people getting soft.

@Ramelandil Caverns was in 3.4.1 I believe when I started playing Angband. I like the danger of trawling these levels for the reasons you don't like them. If we continue the trend of ever so slowly removing the danger from Angband we will wind up with a neutered thing like a fiery dragon declawed and tempered to be made into someone's pet. The fundamental spirit and backbone of what Angband is meant to be will be neutered and lost. Dying is a fundamental part of the Angband experience. Let's not forget it! The more I die, the more I get used to it and the more I embrace it. I thought removing trap detection was a move in the right direction.

Or, here's an idea: Mages get near or 100% accuracy with their detection spell; everyone else gets severely less accuracy and more mana cost to detect; and leveling up improves the accuracy of the detection.

@Sky: in the '=' menu set the base delay factor to 5 (the default is 40). This will greatly improve the problem of breath animations taking too long. (Why the default is 40 and not 5 is beyond me).

Disclaimer: it is impossible for me to make a long post without going back and ninja-editing it a half dozen times for clarity and grammar, I apologize in advance.
__________________
Detailed account of my Ironman win here.

Last edited by Grotug; May 2, 2018 at 05:43. Reason: see Disclaimer at bottom of post
Grotug is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bug: "n" not counted as a non-"ESC" key chikinn Vanilla 3 November 8, 2014 22:34
Bug with "Turn" in the "Player History" dump bron Vanilla 3 January 17, 2014 16:35
"Tonight's an Angband kinda night." Cameron Idle chatter 5 December 21, 2013 03:33
Another "You know you've been playing Angband too long when..." moment kingvictory2003 Idle chatter 2 December 17, 2010 18:37
"repeat" Command just little bit "smarter" ClaytonAguiar Vanilla 8 June 17, 2009 15:01


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.