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Old May 2, 2018, 13:58   #21
Ramelandil
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I'll certainly grant that "dying is a fundamental part of the Angband experience", but I think "learning not to take unnecessary risks" is also, at least when the player is still trying to win for the first time, as I am. By the time you're experienced enough to be able to win Ironman-style, I do imagine you're looking for more risk in @'s life, because the base level of risk in the game has become boring to you. :-)
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Old May 2, 2018, 15:26   #22
Philip
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Your assessment that caverns add unnecessary risk to an @'s life is correct, at least as they are now. They can be fun for precisely this reason, but I find it undesirable that most players avoid them from a utilitarian perspective. I feel like different forms of level organization should benefit different characters - short vs long range, persistent vs burst damage - in much the same way as different dungeons do in other variants. Long corridors and sparse rooms benefit burst damage (most useful for single opponents, as you can expect to face), long range (corridors) characters, since fights are easy to organize for them. The kobold pseudo-vault Grotug suggested basing an entire level on would benefit close range persistent damage characters (such as warriors) who do not need the advantages of far sight and a regular dungeon design. Caverns might be expected to benefit AoE attackers (by biasing groups of monsters over individuals) who favor long range (by making light area spells actually work in caverns). I will admit, this is an idea taken mostly from O, with mini-moria levels full of orcs, ogres, and trolls, though I find the room and level design itself in those somewhat lacking, and would prefer using the V one. Also, bring in themed levels, they're great. Horrible, but great.
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Old May 2, 2018, 16:53   #23
mrfy
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I agree with most of what Grotug said. I've gotten used to the traps, they can be annoying early on, but they're supposed to be. Don't nerf them. This is an evolving game, without changes it will die. At first I was very skeptical of the new ID system, but now I'm used to it.

I'm a completist and I like exploring all kinds of levels, normal, maze and cavern.

Looking forward to more changes, finished updates to the class and race system, updated monster list, and artifacts.
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Old May 2, 2018, 22:37   #24
Nick
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Thanks everyone for an extremely helpful discussion

I now have several things to do for 4.1.3; here's my plan:
  1. ID - this is remaining unchanged (I get the +to-hit etc issue, but I think the current system is probably still best). I know this was a big one for you, Egavactip, but weight of opinion over a long time is in favour of the new system
  2. Curses - look at making them a bit rarer, and possibly more rarer earlier
  3. Traps - Reduce frequency a lot, especially early
  4. Level generation - no change for now; I think there's a reasonable acceptance of the new algorithm. I really like Grotug's idea, and I actually think some more variety would be good. Do note that you can change the frequency of the algorithms by editing dungeon_profile.txt
  5. Rubble - yeah, different tile for passable rubble. That was an oversight on my part
  6. Breath animation - I'll reduce the default base delay factor
  7. Doors opening out of sight, etc - I think this is probably still an improvement, but I have some sympathy with Pete's point of view (and in fact, Pete, it is really this code (or its intersection with the object code) that is causing most problems). No change for now

Any more comment on any of these is of course welcome.
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Old May 2, 2018, 22:48   #25
Derakon
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I'd like to get your opinion on what purpose traps should serve in the game, and why having them be unreliably detectable is desirable.
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Old May 3, 2018, 02:28   #26
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Nick, I was thinking I'd spend some time this weekend implementing a bunch of balance tweaks. I'd still like to do that. I'll make all the commits atomic. I think a lot of what you wrote in your list is stuff that I want to do, but a few other tweaks as well.

I might take a look at the curse generation code and see if I can make any suggestions there. I haven't even glanced at it.
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Old May 3, 2018, 05:29   #27
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delay factor 5 is suicidal. 20 is better.
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Old May 3, 2018, 12:35   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Nick, I was thinking I'd spend some time this weekend implementing a bunch of balance tweaks. I'd still like to do that. I'll make all the commits atomic. I think a lot of what you wrote in your list is stuff that I want to do, but a few other tweaks as well.

I might take a look at the curse generation code and see if I can make any suggestions there. I haven't even glanced at it.
That would be excellent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I'd like to get your opinion on what purpose traps should serve in the game, and why having them be unreliably detectable is desirable.
Rather than repeating myself, I will point at the original thread for the traps/door feature branch, and a follow-up thread where the current system finally emerged. In those you will find a great many opinions from me, pretty much pairwise incompatible.

If that is inadequate, I then refer you to this post.

If you read all this closely enough, you will understand that the current situation is a result of rejecting pretty much every other system imaginable (including traps always being visible), many of them more than once. So we're going to try keeping it with the frequency adjusted.

I guess this hasn't really answered the first part of your question, and it's actually kind of difficult to answer. What purpose do monsters serve, or doors, or weapons? They make the dungeon feel more dungeony.

I've had a long day and need to stop this post before I tadpole banana ewrf * wefn iuhoih
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Old May 3, 2018, 15:30   #29
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I guess this hasn't really answered the first part of your question, and it's actually kind of difficult to answer. What purpose do monsters serve, or doors, or weapons? They make the dungeon feel more dungeony.

I've had a long day and need to stop this post before I tadpole banana ewrf * wefn iuhoih
Oh dear, take care of yourself Nick!

But yeah, I think what really needs to be done with traps is make them feel like an integral part of the experience of the game. IMO that means they need to tie into the other core components of the game -- stuff like monsters, items, spells, and the dungeon terrain itself. I don't know what that looks like, I just know that right now traps don't really feel cohesive, which is why my first question is "what purpose are they intended to serve?" I hope that if we can get that nailed down, then the form they should take in-game, and the specific ways in which they tie to other core components, should be more readily apparent.

My agitating for "make traps always visible" is sort of operating with the baseline assumption that the form traps take doesn't change much, and is more of a patch job of "if we must have traps, let's at least make them not interfere with the main gameplay flow." The key problem there being that I don't see current traps as being in the main gameplay flow; they're intrusive, a distraction and an annoyance. In a hypothetical future version they wouldn't necessarily be so, and thus they wouldn't have to be guaranteed to be visible.
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Old May 3, 2018, 15:59   #30
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Having rummaged in my memory for a while, I've managed to remember one dungeon crawl where traps were fun (a variant of Rogue, that never made it to the light of day). The key features of traps were:

1) Traps were never generated in passages or at the entrance to a room. If you knew where the traps were you could always walk around them: they never stopped you from getting from A to B. Disarming didn't exist.

2) Traps affected monsters. (Except for the flying and ethereal ones, I think.) It meant that you could lure a troll onto an arrow trap (minor damage), a trapdoor (the troll would fall to the next level, where you could say hello to him/her/it again), a sleeping gas trap (to help you run away), a paralysing trap (to help you beat the troll up), an immobilisation trap (can't walk but can punch; would make the troll vulnerable to being shot), a teleportation trap etc. You get the picture.

There were very few ways to detect traps without triggering them (a rare scroll or a rare ring), but knowing where they were was really valuable.

Just a suggestion. This would obviously need some modifications to be compatible with Angband (e.g. vaults?), not to mention a possibly unpleasant amount of coding...
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