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Old May 5, 2018, 05:57   #51
Derakon
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There's two kinds of hockey stick. One is when you're a knight's move away from an enemy and can target them with '*' (without manually positioning the cursor) while they can't do the same to you. The other is when they're an arbitrary knight's move away (like, 8 tiles left plus 1 tile up) and you can target a tile way behind them and have the projectile pass through the tile they're in, hitting them as if you could target them with '*'. Monsters use the first version, in the sense that if they happen to be a knight's move away from you they'll happily use spells. They don't use the second version, nor does their AI take any special pains to try to abuse LOS quirks the way the player can.

I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.
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Old May 5, 2018, 05:59   #52
mrfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
It would force players not to use broken mechanic.

Monsters use it against player too? How? They do not act if they cannot see you but you can target some distant tile behind them and let the projectile hit them. Even if you cannot see them.

Being disagreed on this topic feels like I'm against the Warren Commisson. The mechanic is broken but you guys want to keep it that way?
I guess I don't see it as broken since the monsters can use it too. They can also be in the hockey-stick position and fire spells at @.
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Old May 5, 2018, 08:09   #53
Voovus
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Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
One thing to remove is that hockey-stick targeting. It's not only overpowered, it is stupid as hell.
It can represent shooting from behind a corner, so doesn't have to be thematically stupid. (I also find it's only really overpowered in conjunction with phase door, and arguably it's the latter that's overpowered. Not that I'd expect it to go or be changed anytime soon.)
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Old May 5, 2018, 08:54   #54
Sphara
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
There's two kinds of hockey stick. One is when you're a knight's move away from an enemy and can target them with '*' (without manually positioning the cursor) while they can't do the same to you. The other is when they're an arbitrary knight's move away (like, 8 tiles left plus 1 tile up) and you can target a tile way behind them and have the projectile pass through the tile they're in, hitting them as if you could target them with '*'. Monsters use the first version, in the sense that if they happen to be a knight's move away from you they'll happily use spells. They don't use the second version, nor does their AI take any special pains to try to abuse LOS quirks the way the player can.

I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.
Derakon did put it in words better than me there. It was the latter example he gives there I was referring as overpowered. I was not talking about knight's move attack. Maybe it's not 'realistic' that you can shoot someone who is around the corner an L-move away but as long as game tells me that I can see the monster, I'm more than fine with it.


And as Voovus said there, I do not expect this to be changed soon either. I was just surprised to discover this scummy shooting possibility just two/three months ago after playing this game for quite long time. 'Discover' here means that Ingwe taught it to me on angband.live.
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Old May 5, 2018, 11:39   #55
Gwarl
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.
I've been considering attempting this. Not only symmetric, but unified. Angband uses different algorithms for whether you can see a square vs whether you can target a square vs whether you can hit something in that square with a missile (the latter two are *almost* the same), or at least that's my understanding of it.

I'd like to turn all 3 into the same symmetrical, reciprocal algorithm but that would make the game distinctly less angband-y.

I am unlikely to get around to doing the coding any time soon but it's something I've thought about.
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Old May 5, 2018, 15:31   #56
Ingwe Ingweron
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Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
Being disagreed on this topic feels like I'm against the Warren Commisson. The mechanic is broken but you guys want to keep it that way?
By all modern forensic analysis standards, the Warren Commission was correct, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, one shooter, no "magic bullet", no shots from the grassy knoll.
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Old May 5, 2018, 15:34   #57
Ingwe Ingweron
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Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
And as Voovus said there, I do not expect this to be changed soon either. I was just surprised to discover this scummy shooting possibility just two/three months ago after playing this game for quite long time. 'Discover' here means that Ingwe taught it to me on angband.live.
Try winning Rocketband without it, just try, (Tongue in cheek, if it's not apparent from the smile.)
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“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
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Old May 5, 2018, 16:32   #58
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Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
By all modern forensic analysis standards, the Warren Commission was correct, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, one shooter, no "magic bullet", no shots from the grassy knoll.
... but, no doubt, exploiting the hockey stick rule for shooting...
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Old May 6, 2018, 21:40   #59
spara
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My HT-W is now CL19/DL18. Still stumbling into traps . The previous time I played was somewhere around the test versions of the trap branch and I quite enjoyed the version, where traps were found by just stepping next to them. That version also placed them quite intelligently to junctions so that after a while one had to choose, which trap to try to disarm or trigger to progress. I found that much more interesting than the current "you step on a trap" play, which I feel I can't do nothing about.

"Confuse monsters" wand seems to rock! I just used it against Wormtongue and it actually worked. That was a short fight .

Still getting used to curses. @ is wearing a "ring of reckless attacks" that triggers the stoneskin effect from time to time. Not sure what to think about it. Feels like a mild annoyance so far, since it really doesn't effect gameplay much with the current enemies.
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