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Old March 24, 2012, 00:11   #11
CunningGabe
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I maintain that the stat-swap potions should be replaced with potions that temporarily boost a stat (by say, +5), and that 5% of the time they leave a permanent boost when they wear off. Then we don't have these weird stat-swap issues, and id-by-use is easier.
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Old March 24, 2012, 00:21   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I maintain that the stat-swap potions should be replaced with potions that temporarily boost a stat (by say, +5), and that 5% of the time they leave a permanent boost when they wear off. Then we don't have these weird stat-swap issues, and id-by-use is easier.
I agree, except I don't see a need for the chance of a permanent boost for these.
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Old March 24, 2012, 12:16   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
It's more that there was no reason I would ever consider using even an unbiased weapon, let alone a finesse weapon, because my finesse score was so abysmal. I don't think it's unreasonable for a paladin to want to be able to use a longsword without feeling like he's sacrificing too much damage.
I think we ran into a similar issue when balancing Sil. Our first guess for balance ran a straight line for the tradeoffs between two values as found on different items. This was a problem because character preferences generally translate to a derivative, and this would push them all the way to one end or the other.

Our solution was to replace the straight line with a curve. You might do that here by removing the "sum to 100%" rule, and letting balanced weapons get more than that (perhaps longswords 60% prowess, 60% finesse?), and perhaps extreme weapons less (90% / 5% at the ends?), while keeping 80%/20% as a 'typical' split.

Edit: I suppose you could also keep the balance numbers the same but increase the base damage for balanced weapons?

Last edited by Scatha; March 24, 2012 at 12:42.
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Old March 24, 2012, 13:47   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Our first guess for balance ran a straight line for the tradeoffs between two values as found on different items. This was a problem because character preferences generally translate to a derivative, and this would push them all the way to one end or the other.

Edit: I suppose you could also keep the balance numbers the same but increase the base damage for balanced weapons?
I was thinking exactly the same things:
1) this needs to not be a straight line,
2) the most obvious way is to make the finesse and prowess not always sum to 100,
3) the better way is to increase the damage for the balanced weapons.

PS Scatha is being very generous to me with the use of 'we'. Actually he worked this out and I actually took a little bit of convincing. It is definitely the right approach though.
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Old March 24, 2012, 16:17   #15
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Good advice, thanks! The "balanced weapons get better dice" approach seems like it'd be easier for the users to deal with. I guess the question is, how much better...
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Old March 24, 2012, 17:28   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will_asher View Post
I agree, except I don't see a need for the chance of a permanent boost for these.
I don't know if a permanent boost is necessary, but I'm also not sure how much of an impact people will feel from a temp-boost potion. I should just code that up and give it a try, I guess.
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Old March 24, 2012, 17:37   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I don't know if a permanent boost is necessary, but I'm also not sure how much of an impact people will feel from a temp-boost potion. I should just code that up and give it a try, I guess.
Crawl has the exact same thing (the bonus is even +5 just like you suggested), and they are... somewhat useful, sometimes :P Of course I'm not an expert Crawl player, so maybe others would find them more or less useful than I would...
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Old March 24, 2012, 17:41   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Our solution was to replace the straight line with a curve. You might do that here by removing the "sum to 100%" rule, and letting balanced weapons get more than that (perhaps longswords 60% prowess, 60% finesse?), and perhaps extreme weapons less (90% / 5% at the ends?), while keeping 80%/20% as a 'typical' split.
I had the same feeling. If a longsword is appealing to no character, then boost it up a bit, cause IMO, a long sword being a fairly ordinary weapon, should be a half-way decent choice for just about anybody, and an exceptional choice for for... let's say warrior types.
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Old April 25, 2012, 07:06   #19
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so when are finesse weapons good?

I read this thread before I picked up v4. Cool, I thought, finally heavy weapons are going to make sense to use, and there will be different fighting styles. It'd been a few years since I'd really played Angband and I figured I'd try out a finesse character to see what that would be like.

My first character was a hobbit thief, I reduced his strength a bit and boosted dexterity so his starting finesse was pretty darn good. Around Clvl 10 I found some decent rapiers and stuff, and then I found a flail which was way better (got me to something like 15 damage per round whereas I was looking at maybe 10 with a short sword), then I got one of slay evil, and then I managed to finally buy a vanilla katana in the store which got me to 30 damage per round. In no case was a pure finesse weapon that I ran into ever appealing. Especially since the base damage per blow is so low that even if I had 20 blows per round, they all would be absorbed by half the monsters in the dungeon.

Similarly, I just ran a hobbit ranger (really annoying death) to Clvl 20 / Dlvl 33. I died wielding a hunter's broadsword, but could have equally gone for a battle axe.

Overall impressions: melee attacks seem to bounce off monsters. magic missile for my ranger was way better than either my melee or my longbow. Game seems mostly easier than I remember, but monsters are much harder to squash. I think it's easier because there aren't curses on equipment, there's less really bad equipment, less bad potions (I only hit one potion of saltwater), and generally the game seems less vindictive for making careless mistakes. I wish v4 were nastier (isn't getting screwed for being careless what this game is all about?).

Weapons with brands and such don't seem a whole lot better than regular weapons, and oddly free action seemed more common than see invisible (I found two sets of footwear with FA, but nothing of see invis).

Things I really liked:
first time running into a baby chaos drake and hallucinating wildly at Dlvl 17 or so. It was punishing, but it wore off in a few rounds so wasn't totally evil. Also gave me an early taste of what the deeper bits of the dungeon might be like.

Creeping xxx coins aren't obviously monsters until you get near them and they start hitting you. Nearly got my ass kicked by a creeping gold coins around Dlvl 7. Fun.

Things I wish for: ability to intentionally trigger traps (e.g. for teleport or trap doors if the latter still exist).

Code:
  [Angband-v4 v4-830-g188e03d-dirty Character Dump]

 Name   Gopal                                    Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Male         Age             28   STR:     17  -2  +0  +0     15
 Race   Hobbit       Height          37   INT:     14  +2  +2  +0     18
 Class  Ranger       Weight          60   WIS:     10  +1  -2  +0      9
 Title  Courser      Social       Liked   DEX:     16  +3  +1  +0  18/20
 HP     -9/119       Maximize         Y   CON:     12  +2  -1  +0     13
 SP     16/21                             CHR:     10  +1  +1  +0     12

 Level               20   Armor    [22,+10]     Saving Throw         67%
 Cur Exp           6588   Fight (+196,+102)     Stealth        Excellent
 Max Exp           6588   Melee (+216,+158)     Finesse              126
 Adv Exp           7560   Shoot  (+209,+10)     Prowess               60
 MaxDepth   1650' (L33)   Blows    1.8/turn     Shooting          Heroic
 Game Turns      248436   Blow power   2.0x     Disarming            63%
 Standard Turns   23837   Shots      2/turn     Magic Device          73
 Resting Turns    10379   Infra       40 ft     Search Radius          4
 Gold              1451   Speed          -1     Searching             46
                          Burden  102.8 lbs
 You are one of several children of a Hobbit Miller.  You are a well
 liked child.  You have dark brown eyes, straight blond hair, and an
 average complexion.


rAcid:........+.... Nexus:.............
rElec:....+........ Nethr:.............
rFire:............. Chaos:.............
rCold:............. Disen:.............
rPois:............. Feath:.............
rLite:............. pFear:.............
rDark:............. pBlnd:.............
Sound:............. pConf:.............
Shard:............. pStun:.............

Light:.....+....... Tunn.:.............
Regen:............. Speed:.............
  ESP:............. Blows:.............
Invis:............. Shots:.............
FrAct:...........+. Might:.............
HLife:............+ S.Dig:.............
Stea.:............. ImpHP:.............
Sear.:.............  Fear:.............
Infra:............+ Aggrv:.............


  [Last Messages]

> Nár, the Dwarf hits you.
> Nár, the Dwarf misses you.
> Nár, the Dwarf hits you.
> You fail to harm Nár, the Dwarf.
> Nár, the Dwarf sets off a blinding flash.
> You are blind.
> You hit it.
> You miss it.
> it hits you.
> You hit it.
> You miss it.
> it hits you.
> You miss it.
> it hits you.
> You die.

Killed by Nár, the Dwarf.

  [Character Equipment]

a) a Journeyman's Broad Sword of Slay Troll (2d5) (+20,+56) <+85>
     Dropped by a Quasit at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     Slays trolls (x1.85).
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Receives 40% of your finesse score, 65% of your prowess score.
     1.8 blows/round.
     2.0x damage multiplier.
     Average damage/round: 22.5 vs. normal creatures, 31.9 vs. trolls.
     
     
b) a Long Bow of Slaying (x3) (+13,+10)
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
c) a Ring of Protection [+10]
     Found lying on the floor at 700 feet (level 14).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
d) a Ring of Reckless Attacks (+35,+27) [-12]
     Found lying on the floor at 750 feet (level 15).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
e) an Amulet of Resist Lightning
     Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     Provides resistance to lightning.
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     
     
f) a Lantern (11782 turns) <+2>
     Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     +2 light radius.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
     
g) a Jerkin [8,-1]
     Found lying on the floor at 500 feet (level 10).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
h) a Tough Cloak [1,+5]
     Dropped by a Snaga at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
i) a Large Shield of Resist Acid [5,+0]
     Bought from a store.
     
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     
j) a Soft Cap [2,+0]
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     
     
k) a Tough Set of Gauntlets [3,+2]
     Dropped by an unknown monster at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
l) a Tough Pair of Soft Boots of Free Action [3,+4]
     Dropped by Lagduf, the Snaga at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     


  [Character Quiver]

n) 21 Arrows (1d7) (+0,+0)
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 120 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 23 vs. normal creatures, 0 vs. creatures
     made of stone, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 25.2 vs. creatures
     hurt by light, 29 vs. evil creatures, 271.4 vs. demons, 23.8 vs.
     orcs, 1822.6 vs. trolls, 26.4 vs. giants, 1822.6 vs. dragons, 67.4
     vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 0 vs. creatures not resistant
     to electricity, 47 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, 0 vs.
     creatures not resistant to cold, 2499.8 vs. creatures not
     resistant to poison.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
     
o) 40 Arrows (1d7) (+0,+0)
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 120 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 23 vs. normal creatures, 0 vs. creatures
     made of stone, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 25.2 vs. creatures
     hurt by light, 29 vs. evil creatures, 271.4 vs. demons, 23.8 vs.
     orcs, 1822.6 vs. trolls, 26.4 vs. giants, 1822.6 vs. dragons, 67.4
     vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 0 vs. creatures not resistant
     to electricity, 47 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, 0 vs.
     creatures not resistant to cold, 2499.8 vs. creatures not
     resistant to poison.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
     
p) (nothing)
q) (nothing)
r) (nothing)
s) (nothing)
t) (nothing)
u) (nothing)
v) (nothing)
w) (nothing)


  [Character Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners]
     Can be destroyed by fire.
     
     
b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks]
     Can be destroyed by fire.
     
     
c) 2 Rations of Food
     Dropped by a Green glutton ghost at 1400 feet (level 28).
     
     
d) 6 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     
e) a Potion of Cure Critical Wounds
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     
f) a Potion of Speed
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     
g) a Potion of Resist Poison
     Dropped by a Gnome mage at 700 feet (level 14).
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     
h) 3 Potions of True Seeing
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     
i) 8 Scrolls of Phase Door
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
j) a Scroll of Teleportation
     Dropped by a Blue yeek at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
k) 4 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
l) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
m) a Scroll of Holy Chant
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
n) a Rod of Magic Mapping
     Found lying on the floor at 700 feet (level 14).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
o) 2 Wands of Stone to Mud (8 charges)
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
p) a Wand of Sleep Monster (16 charges)
     Dropped by a Troll priest at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
q) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (8 charges)
     Dropped by a Forest wight at 1400 feet (level 28).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
r) a Staff of Teleportation (6 charges)
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
s) a Staff of Identify (8 charges)
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
t) a Rapier of Lightning (3d2) (+10,+13) <+85..>
     Found lying on the floor at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     Branded with venom (x1.79), lightning (x1.85).
     Provides resistance to lightning.
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Receives 90% of your finesse score, 10% of your prowess score.
     2.8 blows/round.
     1.1x damage multiplier.
     Average damage/round: 12.5 vs. normal creatures, 22.2 vs.
     creatures not resistant to electricity, 21.3 vs. creatures not
     resistant to poison.
     
     


  [Home Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners]
     Can be destroyed by fire.
     
     
b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks]
     Can be destroyed by fire.
     
     
c) a Scroll of Remove Curse
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
d) 4 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
e) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
f) a Staff of Identify (8 charges)
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
     
g) a Ring of Searching <+2>
     Found lying on the floor at 650 feet (level 13).
     
     +10% to searching.
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
h) a Ring of Delving <+4>
     Dropped by a Snaga at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     +4 tunneling.
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
     
i) a Tough Pair of Sandals of Free Action [2,+3]
     Dropped by a Blue yeek at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     
j) 19 Journeyman's Sling Shots of Venom (4d3) (+45,+71) <+84..>
     Dropped by Orfax, Son of Boldor at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     Branded with venom (x1.51), flames (x1.84).
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
     


============================================================
                   CHAR.
|   TURN  | DEPTH |LEVEL| EVENT
============================================================
         1      0'    1   Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
      3022    100'    2   Reached level 2
      7710    200'    3   Reached level 3
     10471    200'    3   Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog
     10471    200'    4   Reached level 4
     11206    200'    4   Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog
     15192    200'    5   Reached level 5
     21262    250'    6   Reached level 6
     29978    300'    7   Reached level 7
     34907    400'    8   Reached level 8
     49045    500'    9   Reached level 9
     59587    600'   10   Reached level 10
     62005    650'   11   Reached level 11
     70493    650'   12   Reached level 12
     83629    700'   13   Reached level 13
     97968    700'   14   Reached level 14
    116100    850'   15   Reached level 15
    134628    850'   16   Reached level 16
    147577    850'   16   Killed Lagduf, the Snaga
    169892   1000'   17   Reached level 17
    195177    950'   18   Reached level 18
    204964   1000'   18   Killed Orfax, Son of Boldor
    218317   1400'   19   Reached level 19
    245178   1650'   20   Reached level 20


  [Options]

Maximise effect of race/class bonuses        : yes (birth_maximize)
Randomise the artifacts (except a very few)  : no  (birth_randarts)
Restrict the use of stairs/recall            : no  (birth_ironman)
Restrict the use of stores/home              : no  (birth_no_stores)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
Don't stack objects on the floor             : no  (birth_no_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_no_preserve)
Don't generate connected stairs              : no  (birth_no_stairs)
Don't show level feelings                    : no  (birth_no_feelings)
Items always sell for 0 gold                 : no  (birth_no_selling)
Use previous set of randarts                 : yes (birth_keep_randarts)
Monsters chase recent locations              : yes (birth_ai_smell)
Monsters act smarter in groups               : yes (birth_ai_packs)
Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
Monsters exploit player's weaknesses         : no  (birth_ai_cheat)
Monsters behave more intelligently (broken)  : no  (birth_ai_smart)
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Old April 25, 2012, 07:27   #20
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saarn View Post
In no case was a pure finesse weapon that I ran into ever appealing. Especially since the base damage per blow is so low that even if I had 20 blows per round, they all would be absorbed by half the monsters in the dungeon.
I've had similar concerns lurking in the back of my mind but never really got a chance to fully playtest a finesse character. Finesse and prowess weapons really ought to have the same average damage per round when used by appropriately-skilled characters; prowess characters maybe slightly higher due to the fact they hit less often, but not hugely so. But prowess weapons nearly universally have better dice than finesse weapons do.

If you want to go through the edit files and propose changes to the damage dice on weapons, feel free to do so.

Incidentally, last I heard missile combat was still semi-broken, so it's sadly no real surprise that shooting things didn't work very well.

Quote:
I think it's easier because there aren't curses on equipment, there's less really bad equipment, less bad potions (I only hit one potion of saltwater), and generally the game seems less vindictive for making careless mistakes. I wish v4 were nastier (isn't getting screwed for being careless what this game is all about?).
Hmm...as part of our efforts to remove the pure-tedium gameplay of identifying everything in sight before using it, ID-by-use has been made much less punishing. To allow for this, the vast majority of bad/cursed items were removed. Thus the player is never outright slapped for daring to try using something when they don't know what it is (though of course you can still be e.g. teleported into the middle of pack of monsters).

Aside from that, though, it may well be that the game doesn't punish gameplay mistakes as harshly as it could. Again, if you have ideas for how that could be fixed, feel free to speak up.

Quote:
Weapons with brands and such don't seem a whole lot better than regular weapons
I'm inclined to agree with you, but I haven't yet convinced Magnate of this. Not that I've been making a concerted effort, mind.

Quote:
Things I really liked:
first time running into a baby chaos drake and hallucinating wildly at Dlvl 17 or so. It was punishing, but it wore off in a few rounds so wasn't totally evil. Also gave me an early taste of what the deeper bits of the dungeon might be like.
Excellent. Exactly as planned.
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