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Old August 15, 2018, 16:46   #11
Dean Anderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer View Post
A few questions or things I noticed.

-The random starting towns seem not even close to similar power level, some have Jackals and White worms in the sewers, some Copperhead snakes and masses of Redweed.
Most of them are similar. Basically, you have (in descending order of difficulty):
  • Kadath - Not really a town since it doesn't have any buildings in it. It's also full of really hard monsters. Kadath is likely to be the last place you go, since the dungeon under it is the hardest one in the game. Obviously, you never start in Kadath (and in most games you won't visit it either).
  • Ulthar & Nir - Each of these has a seven level sewer under it with a fixed boss at the bottom. They also both have themed enemies (Nir has more humans, Ulthar has more animals). This makes them harder than the normal sewers, so you need to be careful in them.
  • Dylath-Leen - Has a five level sewer, but it's at a difficulty of +1 meaning that each level is effectively one level "deeper" when it comes to monsters, treasure, traps, and everything else. Obviously this makes it trickier for a starting character on their first couple of dives.
  • Inganok, Ilek-Vad, Hlanth - These are your average towns with normal five-level sewers under them.
  • Celephais - The sewer under this town is normal, but only has three levels instead of the normal five.

As well as the difference in sewers, the different towns each have a different selection of buildings in them. Nir, for example, has very few shops, and as such it's also excluded (as well as Kadath) when the game is choosing a starting town for you.

So where you start can be good or bad, but all the starting towns are survivable if you're careful.

Quote:
Stepped into one dungeon, just outside town, Shelob's tower, and was ganged up by a couple Giant Spiders, it was short and unpleasant, lol.
Yeah, I wouldn't enter Shelob's Tower until higher level. Even the first level of the tower is the equivalent of level 14 of a "typical" dungeon.

Try using the map ('M') on the surface. It will show you the whole wilderness, with all the towns and dungeons marked (although which dungeon is which isn't identified until you visit them).

Each dungeon has three values listed: 'Levels', 'Difficulty', and 'Quests'.

'Levels' shows you how many levels (floors) the dungeon has.

'Difficulty' shows you the relative offset of the dungeon. Basically this is added to the level number when determining things like monsters, treasure, etc. For example if a dungeon has a difficulty of 10 then the first level of that dungeon is generated and played as if it were level 11. The second level as if it were level 12, and so forth.

'Quests' shows you how many quest levels there are in the dungeon. You win the game by completing all the quests in all the dungeons. There are always 50 quests in the game, with 24 of them being fixed (including one on the final level of each dungeon except for the smaller town sewers) and the other 26 being randomly generated.

Many of the dungeons have biases towards a certain type of creature too. These aren't told to you, but should be obvious (for example Shelob's Lair has a bias towards spiders, and The Necropolis has a bias towards undead).

You'll note that as well as the game not telling you which dungeon is which, it also doesn't tell you the difficulty or size of any of the dungeons. You can find this out by visiting them (entering the first level will tell you the difficulty; reaching the last level will tell you the size) or from Scrolls of Rumour. Scrolls of Rumour will always give you information about a dungeon or about a quest, and will always give you new information if possible; so it's worth reading them (and, in my opinion, worth buying them to read if you see them in the shops).

A good clue to the difficulty of a dungeon, by the way, is the difficulty of the monsters on the surface. Normal wilderness areas are the equivalent of dungeon level two (and have a bias towards animals). The wilderness areas above dungeons have monsters of a level equivalent to half the dungeon's difficulty, and have a bias that is the same as the dungeon's bias. So if you are at all worried by the monsters on the surface near a dungeon, it's a good sign that you're too low level to survive the dungeon itself.

Quote:
-Dungeon level is displayed as "lvl 1+0" what does the plus portion refer to?
It's the difficulty of the dungeon. So for example, if you enter the sewer under Hlanth it will say "1+0" because the first level of that sewer is "level one" difficulty, but if you enter the sewer under Dylath-Leen it will say "1+1" meaning that you're effectively on "dungeon level two" even though you're only on the top level of that dungeon.

Quote:
-A message appeared "SM: 111%" is this important? relevant?
That is the speed indicator. Instead of "Fast +10" or "Slow -20" or whatever, it actually tells you exactly how fast you're going. "SM: 111%" means that you're moving slightly slowly (you were probably overburdened) and each move you make will take 111% of a turn to take. If it said "FM:90%" it would mean that you were moving quickly and each move would only take 90% of a turn to make.

Quote:
-Archery. Bows are rare, Arrows in town almost nonexistent. Arrows break, A LOT, 14 out of 18 shots broke against floating eyes, clear ickys/worms and such. Is Ranged combat practical?
I'm not sure, to be honest. I rarely play archers, so I never know whether they're underpowered or I'm just bad at playing them!

Quote:
-The HP randomizer on leveling seems a little extreme, 4 one level, 17 the next.
Hit points aren't actually "rolled" per-se. The way it works is that let's say you're a Human Priest, and therefore get 1d12 hit points per level.

What the game actually does is give you maximum hit points at first level (12 in this case) and then distribute the other rollable values as evenly as possible amongst the other 49 levels (favouring higher values when there's not an even split).

So with a d12 you'd get:

5 x 12
4 x 11
4 x 10
4 x 9
4 x 8
4 x 7
4 x 6
4 x 5
4 x 4
4 x 3
4 x 2
4 x 1

Those other forty nine "rolls" are then shuffled and distributed in advance to the forty nine levels above first.

So you may be lucky by getting some high "rolls" early on when it matters more and getting lower "rolls" later when you've such a high Con bonus that it no longer matters, or you may be unlucky and get a bunch of low "rolls" early on. But either way, you'll end up with the same total hit points by the time you get to 50th level.
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Old August 15, 2018, 17:45   #12
CyclopsSlayer
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Thank you!

The L/D/Q seemed fairly obvious. Nice to know the map identifies after you enter, otherwise it looked fairly useless.
Yeah, entered Shelobs at 13 or 14, but had crap gear. Killed a few easy spiders, then a giant showed and I was in the middle of a mob at low health, blinked and appeared next to another Giant. ouchies...

Nice to know how HP 'rolls' works.

Tried a Ranger, restarted until starting town had bow and arrows. Longbow +0/+0, 23 arrows 1d4. Level 1 of Celephais sewer. 18 shots, 14 arrow breakages. 75-80% breakage rate makes them rather meh. The character had a Bow/Thrown: 128% if that affects anything.
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Old August 15, 2018, 21:44   #13
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Oh boy, cthulhu?? Do want !!
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Old August 15, 2018, 23:23   #14
Dean Anderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer View Post
Tried a Ranger, restarted until starting town had bow and arrows. Longbow +0/+0, 23 arrows 1d4. Level 1 of Celephais sewer. 18 shots, 14 arrow breakages. 75-80% breakage rate makes them rather meh. The character had a Bow/Thrown: 128% if that affects anything.
I've just looked in the code, and arrow breakage is a flat 50% chance, so it looks like you got a string of unlucky rolls there.

Crossbow bolts and sling shots only have a 25% chance of breakage. I might drop arrows down to match them...
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Old August 18, 2018, 16:49   #15
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I'd not played Cthangband before, and just came across this release the other day. I've played Angband and ZAngband a bunch. So far I'm liking Cthangband and having fun with it, but I think I ran into a couple things that might be bugs (they might just be my misunderstanding, though).

First, I had come across 30 Rounded Pebbles (+4, +1). I was only level 3 or so, and had been given them by a god upon levelling up. Not being a sling user, I figured it would be some nice cash. Went to the shop and they offered me 540 gold. I thought that was marvelous, so accepted. But then noticed I only had 265 or so gold total. I checked the message log and it said I told the 30 pebbles for 18 gold. 18 * 30 = 540, the value I had seen. I don't know exactly how much I actually received, but it was obviously substantially less. My charisma is pretty low, so maybe I got what my charisma deserved but it displayed something higher incorrectly? Really not sure what happened, it was just confusing.

Second, I ventured out of the town of Ignarok. I headed north toward the 'home of the gods' place, not knowing what it was. I made it there, found trolls that would easily kill me if spooked. So I read a scroll of word of recall. Recalled into the sewers underneath Ignarok. Relieved, I poked around a bit then took stairs back up. I emerged into.... Ignarok? But not? The game says I am in Ignarok. The map says I am in Ignarok. The mobs are town mobs from Ignarok. But... it is just an empty box like the 'home of the gods' I had come from. No shops, etc. Pretty sure this one is a bug even if I'm not confident of the recall mechanics.

Oh, and is there any possibility of getting some settings in the future? I really prefer to not have the display center on the character, and usually play with the extended ascii characters that use the shaded blocks rather than octothorpes for the walls and such. No big deal if not, I was just surprised at there not being any real settings at all after coming from ZAngband and similar that have lots of settings. I know documentation is no fun, but like someone else in this thread I got the 'SM: 111%' notification and was completely mystified. I still don't know what 'SM' could possibly stand for, though I did figure out it has to do with being over-encumbered. I still haven't figured out why I keep getting told "You suddenly feel almost lonely."

Thanks for the game!
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Old August 18, 2018, 22:42   #16
Dean Anderson
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Originally Posted by codetaku View Post
I'd not played Cthangband before, and just came across this release the other day. I've played Angband and ZAngband a bunch. So far I'm liking Cthangband and having fun with it, but I think I ran into a couple things that might be bugs (they might just be my misunderstanding, though).
Since it's been such a huge re-write, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are some new bugs I've introduced and not found/fixed yet.

Quote:
First, I had come across 30 Rounded Pebbles (+4, +1). I was only level 3 or so, and had been given them by a god upon levelling up. Not being a sling user, I figured it would be some nice cash. Went to the shop and they offered me 540 gold. I thought that was marvelous, so accepted. But then noticed I only had 265 or so gold total. I checked the message log and it said I told the 30 pebbles for 18 gold. 18 * 30 = 540, the value I had seen. I don't know exactly how much I actually received, but it was obviously substantially less. My charisma is pretty low, so maybe I got what my charisma deserved but it displayed something higher incorrectly? Really not sure what happened, it was just confusing.
Yep - found and fixed, thanks. It was offering the correct total price for the bundle of items sold together, but only actually giving you the money for one item.

Until there's a new release, the work-around is to either sell them individually or just not care because it's pretty insignificant amounts of money.

Quote:
Second, I ventured out of the town of Ignarok. I headed north toward the 'home of the gods' place, not knowing what it was. I made it there, found trolls that would easily kill me if spooked. So I read a scroll of word of recall. Recalled into the sewers underneath Ignarok. Relieved, I poked around a bit then took stairs back up. I emerged into.... Ignarok? But not? The game says I am in Ignarok. The map says I am in Ignarok. The mobs are town mobs from Ignarok. But... it is just an empty box like the 'home of the gods' I had come from. No shops, etc. Pretty sure this one is a bug even if I'm not confident of the recall mechanics.
Yep. Also a bug - this one was a bit of an obscure one. It only happens when you have recalled from town A to dungeon B, when dungeon B is underneath town C, and then exited dungeon B via the stairs rather than by recalling back out.

It would get confused, and although it tells you that you are in town C (and, in fact, you are in town C) when it generates the town level it gives you the shops for town A.

The work-around for this one until it is fixed is to simply exit the town by walking out of it (rather than going back downstairs), and then immediately walk back in. That should re-set things and it will no longer be confused.

Quote:
Oh, and is there any possibility of getting some settings in the future? I really prefer to not have the display center on the character, and usually play with the extended ascii characters that use the shaded blocks rather than octothorpes for the walls and such. No big deal if not, I was just surprised at there not being any real settings at all after coming from ZAngband and similar that have lots of settings.
One of the things I did before switching from C to C# was to simplify everything by taking out the six(!) pages of options and all the conditional code that they required, making everything much simpler to convert.

I might toy with putting the blocky wall graphics back in, although to be honest I quite like the "pure" ASCII look.

Quote:
I know documentation is no fun, but like someone else in this thread I got the 'SM: 111%' notification and was completely mystified. I still don't know what 'SM' could possibly stand for, though I did figure out it has to do with being over-encumbered.
"SM" stands for "Slow Movement", and "FM" stands for "Fast Movement". "SM: 111%" means that you're moving more slowly so each move takes 110% of a turn.

Quote:
I still haven't figured out why I keep getting told "You suddenly feel almost lonely."
You've been given a mutation. If you check your mutation list ('J' for the journal, then 'm' for mutations) you'll see - possibly amongst others - "You sometimes cause nearby creatures to vanish". This means that occasionally all the nearby monsters will be banished. The "You suddenly feel almost lonely." message is what it says each time that happens.

There are ninety six mutations that you can get in total, and unlike spells or powers they don't actually have names (well, they do in the code, but there's nowhere player-facing in which they're named).

Thirty two of them are passive mutations that change your stats or give you resistances or vulnerabilities or whatever.

Thirty two of them are activatable mutations that you access with 'P' along with your racial power (if any) if you want to use them.

Thirty two of them are random mutations that mostly go off on their own at random times making something happen. There are a few exceptions here, since one of these goes off when you go up a level and five of them occasionally go off when you make an attack.
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Old August 18, 2018, 23:44   #17
Dean Anderson
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Having fixed those two bugs, I've just had a look at using the extended characters for walls and things...

...and it looks horrible.

The problem is that the graphics system I'm using is Windows Presentation Framework (WPF). It's not the best, but it's native to C# without needing additional libraries and it's much, much faster than actual Console code - and also has the advantage of using both hardware acceleration and OpenType to display fonts, so it's crystal clear at any resolution.

That's great for standard ASCII display, but due to the way WPF works I've got the display split into a grid of 80x25 cells, each of which holds a single character. The issue is that the cells are based on the screen size, and they therefore don't quite match the aspect ratio of a single character.

Normally, you don't notice. The background colour for all characters is black, and the gaps between the cells are black, so if there's a pixel or so space between characters in one direction or the other you don't see it. Similarly, if there's a slight overlap you don't notice because none of the glyphs for the characters reaches the very edges of the cell.

Unfortunately, when you try to use extended characters that fill the whole character space - such as the blocks used for walls - the occasional one-pixel gaps (and occasional one-pixel overlaps) are very apparent and make the screen display look awful.

So at some point I may change the display system to a new one (I was originally thinking of using Unity and going full-graphics), but until then we're stuck with '#'s for walls rather than blocks.
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Old August 23, 2018, 03:39   #18
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Firstly, thanks for the release Dean - it has been fun so far. Playing with a golem chosen one.

A couple of bugs I've noticed.
Shooting speed on a launcher changes the Attack Speed display rather than the Shot Speed line.
A rod of detection only seems to detect traps and doors/stairs.
Armour of Yith gets a rBase and a stealth bonus, but no additional resistance. Armour of resistance seems to get an extra resistance.

How is damage calculated for melee and missiles? The damage display looks different to what I would expect.

A feature request - please allow floor item selection. This is really annoying for pickup and identification.

Some quick method of moving between known towns would be nice too. Gets tedious once you are past the early levels.

Speaking of identification, Vanilla style runeid would be a nice alternative.
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Old August 23, 2018, 08:13   #19
Dean Anderson
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A couple of bugs I've noticed.
Shooting speed on a launcher changes the Attack Speed display rather than the Shot Speed line.
Yep - it's accidentally printing the shoioting speed on the wrong line, which overprints the attack speed. I've fixed that now.

Quote:
A rod of detection only seems to detect traps and doors/stairs.
Fixed. It was a bug in the logic in the "DetectAll()" function.

It was supposed to "or" together the results of all the detection functions in turn and return if any of them detected anything. When converting from C to C# I'd used the wrong operators, and the compiler was "helpfully" optimising it by stopping after the first function in the chain that returned true, since there was "no need" to call the others as it knew by that point what the return value would be.

I've changed the logic to make sure it explicitly calls all the detect functions and doesn't allow the expression evaluation to be short-circuited.

Quote:
Armour of Yith gets a rBase and a stealth bonus, but no additional resistance. Armour of resistance seems to get an extra resistance.
Yes. They both get the basic four resists (Fire, Electric, Acid, Cold), then "of Resistance" has a chance of also resisting Poison and "of Yith" also gives you a bonus to stealth.

That's not a bug. It's just how the two items work.

Quote:
How is damage calculated for melee and missiles? The damage display looks different to what I would expect.
The base damage for a weapon is XdY where X and Y are based on the weapon type, and then your various plusses are added. That's not changed.

I had a look at the display code, and found a bug in it - your damage bonus wasn't being multiplied.

So if you did 2d5+8 damage and had three attacks per round it would say "6d5+8" rather than "6d5+24" for your damage per round.

I've fixed that now.

Also, don't forget that because of the way the speed system works "attacks per round" is subjective. having "Attacks per round: 4" doesn't actually mean that a single attempt to attack an enemy will take a round and will hit them four times. What it actually means is that a single attempt to attack an enemy will only hit them once, but will take 25% of a round. So if you're alternating between moving, attacking, and casting spells then in any given "round" the actual number of attacks you make will vary.

Quote:
A feature request - please allow floor item selection. This is really annoying for pickup and identification.
It should already allow that. I'll look into it.

Quote:
Some quick method of moving between known towns would be nice too. Gets tedious once you are past the early levels.
I've been toying with the idea, but I haven't yet come up with a solution I like. I don't want to make it too simple to bypass the wilderness.

Don't forget that Word of Recall can be used to cross the wilderness if you plan it (it's easier once you've bought a house, but possible before).

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Speaking of identification, Vanilla style runeid would be a nice alternative.
I've not seen that system. How does it work?
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Old August 23, 2018, 11:29   #20
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Yes. They both get the basic four resists (Fire, Electric, Acid, Cold), then "of Resistance" has a chance of also resisting Poison and "of Yith" also gives you a bonus to stealth.

- OK - this just wasn't what I was expecting where elvenkind always got a high resistance.



The base damage for a weapon is XdY where X and Y are based on the weapon type, and then your various plusses are added. That's not changed.

I had a look at the display code, and found a bug in it - your damage bonus wasn't being multiplied.

So if you did 2d5+8 damage and had three attacks per round it would say "6d5+8" rather than "6d5+24" for your damage per round.

I've fixed that now.

- Great - I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or not.

It should already allow that. I'll look into it.

- Some actions allow selection, but default pickup and identify don't.

I've been toying with the idea, but I haven't yet come up with a solution I like. I don't want to make it too simple to bypass the wilderness.

Don't forget that Word of Recall can be used to cross the wilderness if you plan it (it's easier once you've bought a house, but possible before).

- True, one system used by the Cheng branches is to be able to pay to teleport to a town, but only ones you have visited overland. I'd say having to make a payment in a town to have it added to the list would work.

I've not seen that system. How does it work?

- Each item property is associated with a rune. Once you have identified a rune, you know it on all future items. Curses are also associated with a rune. The other changes were to allow identification by use, and also making magic identification fairly rare and expensive. Each identify only identifies 1 random property of an item.
It means that identification can be a challenge early but becomes a non-issue later when "too much junk" tends to become the main problem.
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