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Old June 28, 2021, 01:47   #31
Nick
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Originally Posted by NCountr View Post
It should also be noted that Vanilla itself is its own variant: who approved the reduction of 9 Mage Books to 5 in going from 3.x to 4.x? Was that sent to a Committee for final vote and approval? Or did the Supreme Leader of Vanilla decide and code that on his own?
That change has an interesting history. I started a thread about how magic in Middle-Earth and in Angband (the game), where I basically suggested the expansion from two realms to four that has happened in 4.2. The idea of cutting down the number of spells (and hence books) came out of that thread, but not from me. So I marked that down as something that it looked like the community were fairly happy with, with of course the caveat that a diverse community like we have is rarely completely united on anything.

Later - as I had foreshadowed when I first started as maintainer - I coded up a possible new set of classes and posted about that. This kicked off a long discussion about the form these should take. People played the proposed new classes and gave their opinions. The original ideas changed a lot. The blackguard class, in particular, is almost completely not mine - Gwarl suggested the basic idea, the name was undecided for a long time, I did the first set of spells but David Medley than revamped them so they're almost completely different (and much better). And all of this was done in public, here, with everyone having a chance to participate.

So to answer your questions:
  1. The community (at least as represented on these forums) both suggested and approved it.
  2. There isn't a committee, unless you call the forums a committee. There was a lot of discussion. Not everyone was entirely happy, but decisions had to be made and for the most part they were group decisions.
  3. As mentioned in answer 2 (your questions do overlap a bit...), they were mostly group decisions; I did write most of the code. I do like the title you're giving me though, much better than Butcher

You have proposed some changes in this thread, as have others. By all means (as others have suggested), code these up and submit them. Changes can either be made immediately, or released as an experimental branch as was done during a number of other big recent changes (monsters, classes, ID, etc).
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Old June 28, 2021, 02:49   #32
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This entire thread feels like the great schism!

Firstly, I think NCountr makes some very sensible and considered points to which I'm inclined to agree.

Secondly, I don't think NCountr is a troll account, as has been suggested.

I do think their tone is slightly aggressive and their criticisms of Nick have gone too far. This is a shame because it undermines the sensible points they have raised.

Finally, I think being the vanilla maintainer must be one of the most soul destroying jobs in the world, but at least it pays well hey?

I hope Nick recognises that so many players appreciate his work and the improvements he's made to a game many of us have been playing for decades.

We sometimes moan about the end game, we gripe about broken spells, or OP mobs with irresistible time attacks... At the end of the day, we still keep playing otherwise we wouldn't be here. Let's just focus on what really matters in Angband, finding broken randarts at ridiculously low depths
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Old June 28, 2021, 06:10   #33
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Thirded on the weird tone.

Completely agree on the point that a rebalancing process should be about more than nerfing. Also that unbridled escalation quickly becomes absurd. Glad I'm not the one balancing on that razor's edge in full view of the internet.

Personally I've no gripes with late game. Sometimes it's nice to enjoy the sedate rewards of omnipotence. Morgoth dead, new character, new class, new meta-story. So now mages aren't THE challenge class anymore, that's okay 'cause something else is.

My appreciation to all for the civil environment.
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Old June 28, 2021, 07:43   #34
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Thirdly, maybe you don’t mean it, but you are definitely coming off as pretty abrasive.
Fair enough. I think Nick's handled it quite well; if anything it gets the Yes-Men stirred silly quickly, don't you think? But, no, Trolling the Yes-Men was not my intention.

Every major change made to Angband or Rogue -- or whatever it was called back in the 90s when ASCII was the actual reason we couldn't have nice things -- has been coded up by the vanilla administrator of the time. Sure, I could code things up, splinter off a variant. I did _do_ just that back in the late 90s when I wanted mage spells fixed properly. And, guess where it went? My hard drive. No one else ever saw it. Nor was I adroit enough of a coder to do reconciliations to maintain my changes with where the code went. I know just enough C to be dangerous; you don't want me anywhere near a Makefile if you know what's good for you. Which, in turn, means all my ideas fall on the deaf ears of YesMen shouting at me to run my own code base and let others judge it.

Meanwhile, it's the Vanilla Admin that determines where this story goes. Nick can poll for some issues to gauge acceptability of some things, but let's be honest --- it's Nick's boat now.

I like some of the things he's done with the UI. I appreciate the improvement in many of the mob pops and drops. But, we're not here to talk about those things; we're here to discuss the trite topic Mage OP-ness and how to make the End Game more interesting ... without rocking the boat (which is darn near impossible with so many YesMen putting up the blinders). Am I abrasive? Perhaps. But, I'm going to tell you exactly how I see it.

...Now, are we going to continue to discuss my attitude, or are we going to finally move on to talking about ideas to make things better?
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Old June 28, 2021, 08:53   #35
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Again, you keep just trying to piss people off. YesMen? Lol. All things are done by the maintainer, did you even read the previous description of what went around with the changes? Obviously not, since it went fully against what you are saying.

It is you who is keeping this off-topic ...

Others have in the past contributed or are contributing now, and that has included me, to the coding. You have said your peace (making mage spells a newb trap), it hasn't received much in the way of support, so you want to try it, code it. Looking at one class however does not do anything about the end-game itself.

PS. What is wrong with ASCII? Graphics, eww, disgusting, keep those out of my Angband ...
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Old June 28, 2021, 11:06   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCountr View Post
But, no, Trolling the Yes-Men was not my intention.
Was your intention to refer to everyone who disagrees with you as a Yes-Man? Or perhaps to blow of steam? Because that's the way you come across to me.

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Originally Posted by NCountr View Post
Every major change made to Angband or Rogue -- or whatever it was called back in the 90s when ASCII was the actual reason we couldn't have nice things -- has been coded up by the vanilla administrator of the time.
Commit log says otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCountr View Post
...Now, are we going to continue to discuss my attitude, or are we going to finally move on to talking about ideas to make things better?
Depends, are you going to remove your head from your ...? The current discussion is a mix of ideas and flaming, because your posts are a mix of ideas and flaming. I feel sorry for Voovus who probably opened the thread to discuss ideas to improve the endgame. If you want discussion then discuss. If you want flaming flame. Don't do both, then complain people are concentrating on 1 and not the other.

Last edited by wobbly; June 28, 2021 at 11:12.
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Old June 28, 2021, 13:18   #37
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For me, the problem with late-game is the high chance of insta-death, which means that monster damage is too high or player hp is too low. Speed and ranged attacks are in the mix too.

Before dlvl 45-50, the character has a higher chance to live with multiple enemies in LOS. Some days ago my warg necro was fighting a Osyluth in a corridor (dlvl 74). My HP were half-full (most of my deaths occur because I take this kind of risks). The O was almost dead and it summoned a Gelugon. It breathed...

If I had the time I would try to reduce the damage/hp ratio or tone down monster ranged attacks to see what happens (not for all monsters).
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Old June 28, 2021, 14:25   #38
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For me, the problem with late-game is the high chance of insta-death, which means that monster damage is too high or player hp is too low. Speed and ranged attacks are in the mix too.
It's rare in the late game to have a character which you are fairly sure is going to die but can't save, because that you will have several methods of escape and be resistant to things like confusion and paralysis. So (over-simplifying a bit) for a monster to be a threat, it typically has to be able to dish out serious damage quickly.
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Old June 28, 2021, 14:45   #39
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You are right, I had all the escape methods available and speed. I was comparing the differences between both halfs of the game. In the late game a single monster has the power of many (compared against player HP). I was wondering how the game could be with more HP after clvl 36. If it could be more fun (for sloppy players like me) without making it too easy for the better players.
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Old June 28, 2021, 15:06   #40
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Abusing anti-LoS anti-summon burrowed dead ends or burrowed diamonds (for pillar dancing) with current summoner heavy end game is pretty much mandatory or you will eventually get the bad summon+breath combo. A lot of end-game high mobs have a chance of instakill for no matter how well equipped char if there are 2 in LoS.

Any time you fight a summon who can summon either high end breathers, or things that can cast the biggest storms/balls, dig a hole. There are still summons that can passwall walk, which are the worst as you can't tele other them in the wall... The high end undeads are super annoying, and if one were to optimize fighting, one would always avoid those ...

But I like killing tough stuff too much, undead pits at 90+ here I come! XD
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