Angband Philosophy II: Magic

[Zireael]

I like the randomized spellbooks idea.

Scrolls or spells inscribed on dungeon features are good ideas too.

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Zireael

I like the randomized spellbooks idea.

Scrolls or spells inscribed on dungeon features are good ideas too.

One spellbook, spells like scrolls onto floor, copied to book.

[topazg]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

One spellbook, spells like scrolls onto floor, copied to book.

This. I like this idea very much, and it sorts the town scumming concern from a few posts ago - the only thing you can buy are blank books, and give a book a limited number of slots for spells (say 8 spells in a book). That way, you don't lose the spells in the game, people can pick and choose what they want to have, and take up as many book slots as they want - optimising your set comes into play then as well, as some people will want to keep down to say, 3 books, even in the endgame.

Oh, and Matt's list of spells was very interesting. I've won with a ranger and died against Morgoth as a mage, and my ranger build was similar-ish, but my mage build was very different (yes answers in this case for stuff that I'd actually use in practice):

[hide]Book 1: Magic for Beginners

a) Magic Missile - yes
b) Detect Monsters - yes
c) Phase Door - yes
d) Light Area - yes
e) Treasure/object Detection - n/a
f) Cure Light Wounds - yes
g) Find Hidden Traps/Doors - yes
h) Stinking Cloud - yes

Book 2: Conjurings and Tricks

a) Confuse Monster - no
b) Lightning Bolt - yes
c) Trap/Door Destruction - yes
d) Cure Poison - yes
e) Sleep Monster - no
f) Teleport Self - yes
g) Spear of Light - no
h) Frost Bolt - yes
i) Wonder - yes

Book 3: Incantations and Illusions

a) Satisfy Hunger - yes
b) Lesser Recharging - yes
c) Turn Stone to Mud - yes
d) Fire Bolt - yes
e) Polymorph Other - no
f) Identify - yes
g) Reveal Monster - no
h) Acid Bolt - yes
i) Slow Monster - no

Book 4: Sorcery and Evocations

a) Frost Ball - yes
b) Teleport Other - yes
c) Haste Self - yes
d) Mass Sleep - no
e) Fire Ball - yes
f) Detect treasure (or whatever it's called) - N/A

Book 5: Resistances of Scarabtarices

a) Resist Cold - yes
b) Resist Fire - yes
c) Resist Poison - yes
d) Resistance - yes
e) Shield - yes

Book 6: Raal's Tome of Destruction
(squelched without using)

a) Shock Wave - no
b) Explosion - no
c) Cloudkill - no
d) Acid Ball - yes
e) Ice Storm - yes
f) Meteor Swarm - yes
g) Rift - no

Book 7: Mordenkainen's Escapes

a) Door Creation - no
b) Stair Creation - yes
c) Teleport Level - yes
d) Word of Recall - yes
e) Rune of Protection - yes

Book 8: Tenser's Transformations

a) Heroism - no
b) Berserker - no
c) Enchant Armor - yes
d) Enchant Weapon - yes
e) Greater Recharging - yes
f) Elemental Brand - no

Book 9: Kelek's Grimoire of Power

a) Earthquake - no
b) Bedlam - no
c) Rend Soul - no
d) Banishment - yes
e) Word of Destruction - yes
f) Mass Banishment - yes
g) Chaos Strike - yes
h) Mana Storm - yes[/hide]

Essentially I found spamming offensive ball spells (and bolts earlier on) was not only viable, but very useful. Even stinking cloud was a great louse remover in the earlier days.

What I'd like more than anything is to build my spell repertoire to match my playstyle. I'm all for a variety of different spells that perform similar functions (i.e. here's an unresistable bolt spell that's kind of like that one, but a bit higher mana cost and a bit more damage), as long as I then get to have fun kitting out my spells the way I'd like.

There's plenty of discussion that could be available on things like different realms of magic, even to the extend that a character could gain proficiency with one realm through usage (or have increased affinity to one at the expense of another) - my honest feeling though is that this is an incredible amount of work to keep different realms interesting, and at the same time maintain the practical balance between them. Having played a few variants with different realms, I found similar issues to the V system with some spells being useful and others not so much, and I also found a lack of overall balance (i.e. realm A great in the early game, not so much in the endgame, realm B vice-versa)

[Carnivean]

Originally Posted by Derakon

spell costs must also inflate as they gain levels -- which leaves you with no "cheap but less-powerful" version of a spell you can cast when you don't need the full effects.

I imagine the worst case for this would be for the 1 healing spell. I would hope for a system where the cost is x sp, but if you only have y sp remaining (where y<x), the spell would give you a proportional result of y/x% of max.

[Carnivean]

Originally Posted by topazg

I also found a lack of overall balance (i.e. realm A great in the early game, not so much in the endgame, realm B vice-versa)

I don't agree that this is a problem, as long as A and B are not entirely useless at their respective weak points.

[Zireael]

Copying spells into blank books is an idea that's present in at least one variant but I can't recall which one. That said, it's a great idea.

[topazg]

Originally Posted by Carnivean

I don't agree that this is a problem, as long as A and B are not entirely useless at their respective weak points.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was writing off the idea due to insurmountable difficulties ... just that maintaining both flavour and balance and some unique identity to each realm is a very non-trivial task.

I'd be more than happy to see it, but I don't envy the person trying to build it well

[Carnivean]

Originally Posted by topazg

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was writing off the idea due to insurmountable difficulties ... just that maintaining both flavour and balance and some unique identity to each realm is a very non-trivial task.

I'd be more than happy to see it, but I don't envy the person trying to build it well

Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Carnivean

Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.

I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

Town Book 1

Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
Phase Door
Sense Objects
Detect Doors/Stairs
Recharge
Teleport Other

Town Book 2

Magic Missile
Wonder
Lightning Bolt
Frost Bolt
Fire Bolt
Acid Bolt
Fire Ball

Dungeon Book 1

Resist Cold
Resist Fire
Resistance
Shield
Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)

Dungeon Book 2

Door Creation
Stair Creation
Teleport Level
Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
Banishment
Mass Banishment

Dungeon Book 3

Shock Wave
Explosion
Mana Bolt
Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
Mana Storm

Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.

[fizzix]

Originally Posted by Nick

I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

Town Book 1

Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
Phase Door
Sense Objects
Detect Doors/Stairs
Recharge
Teleport Other

Town Book 2

Magic Missile
Wonder
Lightning Bolt
Frost Bolt
Fire Bolt
Acid Bolt
Fire Ball

Dungeon Book 1

Resist Cold
Resist Fire
Resistance
Shield
Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)

Dungeon Book 2

Door Creation
Stair Creation
Teleport Level
Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
Banishment
Mass Banishment

Dungeon Book 3

Shock Wave
Explosion
Mana Bolt
Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
Mana Storm

Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.

A couple things.

Stinking cloud is missing. That's needed for early game crowd control. This can "become" cloud kill in the late game without too much issue, just like OoD gets upgraded at level 30. You do want an AOE spell that doesn't destroy items.

Teleport self should probably be in book 1. Teleport other should be in a later book. Magic missile should be in book 1. Unless mage gets 2 books to start. They need MM to be able to survive the early game without it being dreadfully boring.

Haste self should appear somewhere in the arcane book.

Word of Destruction is missing, although I could see getting behind only allowing this on items. It's a very powerful escape spell.

Thrust away should just be Rift. It's already a very interesting spell and one that I like playing with. No need to change that one.

Resist cold and fire could just be one spell like in Priest. You could also consider a Resist acid and elec, and a resist poison. Cold and Fire are in some sense the least important double resists to have spells for because they have items that give temp resist.

I would like to see status effect spells coming back in the game, but just more powerful. Sleep monster is a great candidate for a spell. It just needs to be much more effective. That should be the go-to spell in the early game for avoiding monsters.