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Old January 15, 2018, 08:59   #221
PowerWyrm
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I don't think having more or less spellbooks is an issue. The Mage class is already very powerful with the big boost in magic devices, so you can pretty much play comfortably without ever using a spell. Hell you even can win the game with an egoless bookless hobbit mage!

The problem is that currently you still have a spell system based off D&D with many spells that you never use and just cast them to get the exp off them. So getting less spells per class is actually a good idea. If it was me, I would have removed the spellbooks completely and make spellcasting based off skills that are learned automatically as the character levels up, and compensate the advantage of not having to carry books by reducing the number of inventory slots for spellcasters.

Say we keep the spellbooks... now the problem is that with more classes you have more spellbooks, which means less chance of finding the ones you need in the dungeon. What we would need is some kind of adjustment for drops that would give slightly more chances to find your own classes' books compared to all other books.
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Old January 15, 2018, 10:29   #222
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while in fox form, you sometimes can see the item you are walking on, and some other times you can't.
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Old January 15, 2018, 11:17   #223
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do a druid's shapeshifted melee attacks cause confusion?????
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Old January 15, 2018, 13:21   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olivertheorem View Post
While, yes, there will be fewer "power steps" based on spells, as Derakon mentioned the greater reliance on devices (gnome auto-ID ftw) means that while a few steps are lost on spells (due to fewer books), you gain more steps due to the greater reliance on equipment. For example, take lighting spells, now lost to the branch mage in the spellbook. The power curve now makes this mage rely first on scrolls, then on wands/staves, and finally on rods of Illumination (rooms)/Light (corridors). Thus, what was one step (lvl 3 spell in book 1 if memory serves) is now at least 3, smoothing the power curve.
But i don't like using wands / staves / rods basically. Too much hazzle to inscribe items to not have them rely on inventory position and then check for available charges etc. I just play with spellbooks and see in the main screen my mana supply - ready - go! Most of the time i even do not care for activateable items unless they have soooo much more power than my spells but that is mostly true for very low level mages.

So the direction the main game goes is very bad for my playing style.
=> Me the player is forced to rely on things i don't want to rely on. The game stops being fun for me.

For the main concept i just state the following:
(1) The dungeon gets darker the deeper you go. So light is basically an essential for any class that targets mainly in non-melee. => and all non-melee classes had the light spell available.
(2) There are pickaxes and the mage classes had access to stone to mud. I think that is an essential for 'sneaky' classes. I use it often to move shortest way to stairs, or connect tunnels or dig attack tunnels for bolt spells.

Besides that loosing haste self at around level 30-35 is an extreme difference since speed is maybe the main power boost a character can get. Loosing that with no compensation is just a pain if you compare old mage to new mage.

I like druids concept and i think light/priest spells required an overwork.
But destroying the mage class is just not required. And if we would be pricky about the magic realms separation - then fire/water(ice)/acid/elec spells would surely NOT belong to the arcane realm because they are natural effects.

I am willing to design a class relying solely on spellbooks (or preferable) on spells alone (that is without recharge possibility) . If Nick is willing to support me in this cause i am done within 24 hours with the first class.txt file. If it happens in the next days before my next job starts. I could either design the necromant path, or a new class like wizard (even tho wizard and mage would maybe not be too distinguished).
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Old January 15, 2018, 14:48   #225
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But i don't like using wands / staves / rods basically. Too much hazzle to inscribe items to not have them rely on inventory position and then check for available charges etc. I just play with spellbooks and see in the main screen my mana supply - ready - go! Most of the time i even do not care for activateable items unless they have soooo much more power than my spells but that is mostly true for very low level mages.

So the direction the main game goes is very bad for my playing style.
=> Me the player is forced to rely on things i don't want to rely on. The game stops being fun for me.
That is a piece I don't think you had stated before, at least not explicitly, and it does explain why in your posts you generally don't mention items. The greater clarity on your playing style is appreciated, and I understand better now why you disagree with Nick's direction.
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Old January 15, 2018, 15:06   #226
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If you're not going to use devices, your mages are going to be much weaker. That's fine, it's perfectly playable now, and I bet it'll be playable once Nick gets through with his modifications. It'll just be harder. Which is sort of what you're asking for when you are unwilling to use the (second) best skill a class has, both by stats and by the help files. I would compare it to, say, playing a bowless warrior or something like that. Obviously weakens you, and extremely tedious and annoying, I bet, but technically playable.

As we have stated, there are devices for Stone to Mud and for Light. If those are too important and you refuse to use devices, play a Druid or a Priest. You'll only get one, of course, and you forfeit all the other great Mage stuff, but that is working as designed. Similar goes for Haste Self - you are a bit less likely to find a Staff of Speed at the appropriate area, but working without it for a while can't be that bad, and you could always dive a bit.

As you seem to notice in the last paragraph, it seems likely that the class with the most direct damage power from spells will be the necromancer. If you do design a version of it, I am quite certain it will not make it into the game, since Nick presumably already has quite a few ideas in mind, and from your aversion to using devices to supplement character power and the ideas you've outlined here, your version would include, say, more utility spells, or just plain more spells, than the current design philosophy allows.

I do not think there is room in the game for a class that relies exclusively on spells. Assuming that the plan is to give them spells for every occasion, for every possible use of devices (includes Healing and Magi), so that they never feel tempted to use them, the class is going to be overpowered, since each weakness (except some covered by equipment) is covered by a particular device, which means that the class is very short on possible weaknesses. The only one I can think of right now is nonzero % fail. Could be fun, I suppose. There is the final possibility of not worrying about balancing the class, calling them 'Istar', and then making them excellent at all other skills as well, as an introductory class, but I suspect that would just give new players the wrong instincts.
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Old January 15, 2018, 17:51   #227
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why?

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I do not think there is room in the game for a class that relies exclusively on spells.
(1) Why is there no room when there are players (at minimum me) who likes playing this way?

I have read no argument yet that explained WHY the new concept is better than the old one, or what goal(s) are explicitely achieved with it.

Right now all that i read is basically: some people around the maintainer Nick including himself think that players should play this way.

(2) Suggestion for Arcane / Necromant Magi:
One of the major drawbacks of spellcaster is the tremendous amount of turns they sit and wait for mana regeneration. That is a vast drawback and most likeyl the 2nd most often death reason besides being hit from 1-hit overdamage nukes like high damage breathes.

Arcane Mages could get something like:
Tap Arcane Sphere .... cost 20 mana, returns 20+4d4 mana
So basically the threshhold is 20 mana which makes it usefull only from mid-game on. with +10 mana in the average it does take a couple of turns to refill the mana supply (which is still deadly) but decreases boring resting times remarkable.

The effect required is already existent and should be implementable by just adjusting the syntax.

For a Necromant it would be more fitting to have something like Bloodmagic.
Transforms 50hps into 25mana for a small starting cost of 2-3 mana. You can't realy use that in emergency situations, while it still would 1/2 (slightly more) the resting times because once casted you regenerate not only sps but also hps which in the end goes doubles as fast as before.
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Old January 15, 2018, 18:46   #228
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Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
(1) Why is there no room when there are players (at minimum me) who likes playing this way?

I have read no argument yet that explained WHY the new concept is better than the old one, or what goal(s) are explicitely achieved with it.

Right now all that i read is basically: some people around the maintainer Nick including himself think that players should play this way.
I think you'll find the argument is laid out in the rest of the paragraph that you quoted the beginning of. Strategy in Angband revolves around choosing your battles (detection, stealth, teleports, depth decisions, etc.), equipment, managing consumable resources, and managing renewable resources (SP, but also charging items, !CCW and other buyable supplies, etc.). I think that making consumable resources redundant by giving spells to cover all of the desired abilities would make the game less fun rather than more.

If you don't like managing consumables, then you may enjoy Tales of Maj'Eyal, which does away with them and replaces them with swappable abilities (such as +1000% mana regeneration speed for a dozen turns) that each have an independent cool down timer.

Borrowing from TOME, does anyone else think that fox form (and presumably the higher forms I havn't personally tested) would be more interesting as a sustained spell? As in, when you cast it, it reduces your maximum mana by the casting cost, and when you end the spell you'd get the empty mana points back? Casting it and then waiting for the mana to come back make using it extremely cheap and basically a non-choice that the druid should always be in animal form while exploring.

I think this could be an interesting mechanic for many other spells. Detect Foo spells could detect the closest N Foos (1+clvl/10, for example), so that Detect Evil would give you a limited form of Evil ESP. Or perhaps they detect the N strongest evil monsters within range. Sense Invisible for the Priests could give See Invisible status as long as the caster commits however many spell points. Protective spells such as Bless and Resist Poison could also function this way. I think deciding to commit spell points this way would allow for some interesting choices about leaving spell points available to cast your combat spells versus being able to keep an eye on distant monsters and so forth.
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Old January 15, 2018, 19:05   #229
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I am glad to hear that you think necromancers should be able to regain SP somehow - to me it seems like a great way to differentiate them and compensate them for their utility, which I expect to be poor to provide a contrast to mages. Also, necromancers should have some form of SP regeneration because if they're going to do damage with spells, so they need either really cheap spells or SP regen. Eating your hitpoints seems fine (though simply cutting down on resting times seems a bit weak, since you still need to take breaks) but I feel like a late-game spell that eats monster hitpoints and gives mana wouldn't necessarily be too bad either, so long as the necromancer has other weaknesses to compensate. (If monster mana were introduced, it would be fun to give some class a way to hurt that, though it would likely be too powerful).

Mages technically already do have a spell to regain spellpoints, by taking them off of devices (basically making your devices not only a potential extension of mana, but a reservoir). This spell seems to fit quite well with the other spells mages have, to me.

If you frequently die because you sit around waiting for mana regen (this is in fact an extremely good way to die, since stuff spawns and finds you), then perhaps sitting around waiting for mana regen is not a great strategy. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but devices have perfectly adequate damage/turn, and a stack of rods can kill small fry effectively, while a stack of wands will last long enough that you're not worried about running out of charges so much as HP. With good use of devices, and careful selection of targets, you can remain sufficiently close to full mana even right after a fight.

Now, devices are currently a bit annoying to use, mostly due to the way recharging works. Recharging currently rewards some rather odd behavior, mostly due to how recharging stacks works, but I imagine that will be tweaked at some point.

The reason I do not want a class that exclusively uses spells is that I can't think of a good way to balance it. If you can, then I would like to hear your proposal. If the game is too easy (because you have 0% fail everything) it becomes boring. If the game is too tedious (because you run out of SP the moment you try to kill something and are magically prevented from using bows/devices or whatever) then it also becomes boring. If you keep dying because you have bad hitdice or whatever else is chosen to balance the class, the game is also boring because you never see any of it.

I believe the new concept is better than the old one because it differentiates classes, and adds new ones. If you have 9 classes, each with one or more different playstyles (admittedly, I don't know how much half-casters will be differentiated, but still), you have a lot more variety, and more people are likely to find a class that fits their style of play, than the current system of 6 classes, with a total of about 4 different styles (melee, melee + heal spell, ranged with utility arcane magic, blaster caster).
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Old January 15, 2018, 19:14   #230
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(1) Why is there no room when there are players (at minimum me) who likes playing this way?

I have read no argument yet that explained WHY the new concept is better than the old one, or what goal(s) are explicitely achieved with it.
Classes need to have limitations, things they do not do well that impact how they play the game. If they can do everything well, or if everything they're bad at can easily be covered for by something they're good at, then the class does not require difficult decisions, which tend (for most players) to be where the most fun is in the game.

For example, current Vanilla mages are bad at physical damage (melee and archery). They have plenty of attack spells, which are an OK substitute, but they tend to have either poor peak damage, or high mana costs; either way they aren't suitable for use for the entirety of a battle. You have to decide how to make up the damage deficit. Do you try to finish the enemy off in melee? Bring a bow? Use devices? Drink a Potion of Restore Mana? The best answer to this question requires judgement, and that makes the game more interesting. If you could just spam your best attack spell until the enemy fell over, that wouldn't be nearly so interesting.

On the flipside, Vanilla warriors are bad at utility and knowledge in general. In combat, they will presumably just hack away at the enemy until it falls over, but leading up to combat they have a lot of decisions to make! For them, a lot of the interesting decisions are in how to obtain as much knowledge as possible given their limited resources, how to deal with situations with lots of unknowns, and when to spend their consumables.

In short, I would encourage you to think carefully about what your proposed class is bad at, in addition to what they're good at. And make certain that the things they're bad at are actually relevant, without being so terrible that the class becomes unplayable. It can be a tricky balance.
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