Tears unnumbered ye shall shed

[half]

Originally Posted by Nick

I think it's time to outline my current vision for how I want Angband to look in the longer term. All of this is negotiable - I am prepared to abandon any of it based on solid argument.

This looks like a great list. I'd also add what someone previously suggested, which is pruning the monster list. I'd do this to get rid of or rebrand some painfully non-tolkien ones and to make the monsters that remain stand out from each other more.

[Philip]

Perhaps some lessons could be taken from Antoine's variants. Minimal is a good outline of what can safely be removed, and Iron has some great ideas of it's own.

[half]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

This alone was enough for me to absolutely hate Sil. I like playing the game at my own pace, slow or fast however I feel at the moment. I don't even go to other suggestions, because this would ruin the game for me no matter what you do to other things. Even if it is an option, game balanced for this could not possibly be better than any version before it.

Well I guess Nick won't have to worry about getting your approval on the other changes then, which will make things easier. Luckily there are many earlier (and future -- 3.5) versions available that you love to play.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Even if it is an option, game balanced for this could not possibly be better than any version before it.

Challenge accepted!

[nppangband]

Originally Posted by Nick

[*]Forced descent will be the default option. As a consequence, in a standard game there will be no more than 99 levels generated before you meet Morgoth.[*]Some fights and/or traps will result in the player being effectively crippled, and needing to return to town to recover properly.[*]The town will be primarily a place to recover rather than restock.

Does this mean if you go to the town, when you return to the dungeon you would be forced to go down to the next level?

[Nick]

Originally Posted by nppangband

Does this mean if you go to the town, when you return to the dungeon you would be forced to go down to the next level?

That's the way it currently works, yes.

[TJS]

Originally Posted by Nick

I think it's time to outline my current vision for how I want Angband to look in the longer term. All of this is negotiable - I am prepared to abandon any of it based on solid argument.

Nice list.

The core idea is that I want a shorter, more eventful, more dangerous game.

Here are some of the things I envisage happening:
Forced descent will be the default option. As a consequence, in a standard game there will be no more than 99 levels generated before you meet Morgoth.

Excellent, this is very necessary I think (and was going to suggest this myself in that list I started making and then quietly stopped when you got lumbered ).

The dungeon may be shortened.

Good it is far too long (and too boring at the end). I'd go mad and reduce it to 50 levels or so.

I actually think part of the problem is the two end fights are too hard and long meaning you have to scum for consumables and gear to have a decent shot at winning even if every other part of the game is very easy at this point.

I say make Morgoth easier, but you'll have to face him much less prepared than currently. It also means that other monsters near the end will still be tough and worth avoiding rather than pushovers as you stack up the consumables. At the moment I get to the endgame about 35% of the time, but only bother to do the last couple of boring hours to win about 10% of the time and normally just start a new game.

Individual dungeon levels will be more interesting.

Good good. I think they are too big at the moment and have too many long windy corridors.

Some fights will be dangerous, and require the player to escape or die.

Sort of like the sound of this, but I think one of the main problems with Angband currently is the fact that you need to do a lot of boring stuff all the time to avoid death eg. detect all the time. Detection is dull but necessary and then eventually you get ESP which makes it trivial most of the time except for a few things (which exacerbates the problem of the game being hard at the start and easy by the end).

I think we really need a new game mechanic to indicate danger, but without making it a chore like experience to avoid death.

So here's my ideas for this:

Monsters make sounds when walking about and leave clues lying about to indicate their presence on the level. So "you hear a terrifying roar to the East" or "the earth shakes". There could be scorchmarks on the walls and bones with big teethmarks on them lying about. Smaller monsters start to flee when they hear it coming.

Something like an ancient dragon should be an event to the player. He works out there is one on the level and then has to avoid them or arrange their gear to take them on. If they can lure them out and then ransack their nest then there are treasures to be had before they return.

Ok maybe this is all a bit varianty so I'll stop.

Some fights and/or traps will result in the player being effectively crippled, and needing to return to town to recover properly.

Damn I was hoping that the town was going to disappear

Recalling just to allow you to continue after being crippled in the dungeon just means that the player is going to recall every time something bad happens. There's no interesting gameplay decision to make just another chore before you can carry on with the fun part of the game.

I like the idea that you have to play through some difficult situations sometimes though.

The town will be primarily a place to recover rather than restock

Good. At the moment I always have a stack of 25 phase door which are always available when I need them. Having to find and use stuff sparingly will make the game more fun.

Every object will be useful to some character at some time; very few will be useful to any character all the time.

Nice.

Achieving game balance while doing all this will be challenging, and at times the game will be unbalanced; at these times, I would rather err on the side of being too hard than too easy.

Where there is a choice of possible development paths to take (combat system is a prime example here), I would like to actually implement multiple possibilities for people to test and compare. That way I have informed feedback to ignore

All this said, I do want to ensure there is a good selection of birth options to cater for multiple tastes.

Sounds good. I wouldn't go crazy making loads of different versions though since people are going to complain regardless

[half]

TJS: Wow, what great insights into Nick's great list. I see good times ahead for V with this level of high quality game mechanic discussion and vision.

[debo]

Originally Posted by TJS

Nice list.

Damn I was hoping that the town was going to disappear

Recalling just to allow you to continue after being crippled in the dungeon just means that the player is going to recall every time something bad happens. There's no interesting gameplay decision to make just another chore before you can carry on with the fun part of the game.

I don't think this decision is quite so obvious if my min-depth was going to +1 every time I recalled.

e.g. I show up on a floor, get ass handed to me but still have 75% of floor to explore. Do I recall back knowing that I have to go deeper one level when I return, or do I keep exploring?

[TJS]

Originally Posted by half

TJS: Wow, what great insights into Nick's great list. I see good times ahead for V with this level of high quality game mechanic discussion and vision.

Hey thanks! I've been on here for years and no one has liked my ideas before ha ha.

Mind you, I've come up with them after playing a lot of Sil so you are bound to like them