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Old December 5, 2013, 13:17   #61
Psi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by half View Post
If enough people think this issue with pits is a problem, we could implement something like your solution. We already have situational bonuses/penalties and number of attempts so far could be one. It would require savefile changes and would make pits/webs quite a lot less bad for low evasion players (perhaps too easy?). I'm not sure. I generally like it if playstyle leads to different things being big challenges and requiring different adaptations (e.g. a source of Freedom for low-evn characters) so am reluctant to over-smooth things out. Another simple option could be to start pits occurring a little deeper.
I think the only times I've had real trouble with pits was fighting Morgoth and falling in one at the gates in front of the big red C whilst surrounded...
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Old December 5, 2013, 13:27   #62
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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I think the only times I've had real trouble with pits was fighting Morgoth and falling in one at the gates in front of the big red C whilst surrounded...
Same here. I pretty much played exclusively heavy protection low evasion and the only times I ever noticed any pain from pits was trying to kill Morgy and getting annoyed, and your same exact scenario of being surrounded at the gates... The gate pits are really horrific, as there is usually no place to attempt to move to since you are swarmed. I luckily had enough consumables to eventually kill something & get an open space. I suppose exchange places would work while you were in a pit?
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Old December 5, 2013, 13:34   #63
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At the gates it might even be worth exchanging some of your excess XP for song of freedom
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Old December 5, 2013, 13:50   #64
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Huh, I wouldn't of thought of that. I'll have to go look up that song now.
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Old December 5, 2013, 14:46   #65
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I absolutely agree with half that it's good to have some challenges in the dungeon be differentially difficult by build. I think webs do this very well (as do some monster types). However from HM's comments it's not clear that pits are functioning properly in this role. Something is up if even heavy armour builds find that the main constraint on getting out of pits is being surrounded.

I speculate that a big part of what seems odd about pits is that, being based on an Evasion roll, it's hard to balance across several stages of the game.

Very approximately, Evasion varies:
- A little with equipment (mostly this is good flavour, but the parry bonus on swords is bad)
- A little with consumables
- A medium amount with build
- A lot with time through the game

In contrast, Strength (used against webs) varies:
- A little with equipment
- A lot with consumables
- A lot with build
- A little with time through the game

This makes webs scale better across many different depths (the increased response to consumables is also a pretty neat behaviour -- potions of Strength are a much more tempting escape from webs than potions of Dex from pits). The requirement for pits to be manageable early or even half way through the game means it's hard to make them a challenge late on. It's a bit like demanding that you have to hit a cat warrior in melee to escape -- impossible early, trivial late.

To contrast this to some other challenges in the game: monsters do compare to Evasion and Melee, but we balance this by making them appear over a relatively tight set of depths. Bad herbs and potions compare to Will scores, which are a skill so scale, so we'd expect more problems here. However:
- Will doesn't scale as much through the game as Evasion;
- By the depths we're happy to assume that players have identified the bad consumables, so it's not problematic if they don't have ill effects.

One approach would be to make the escape roll for pits depend on something which doesn't scale as much through the game. Two possibilities would be Dex and encumbrance, but I don't think either of those is ever used in any opposed rolls, so it's a stretch to the system (I'm also not sure Evasion is ever used elsewhere for a noncombat roll).

I wonder if Free Action is having an exacerbating effect here. It's often held by the late game, but it's not clear to me that it makes so much sense to have FA help against physical constraints on moving (I love the picture of your Longsword of Final Rest preventing the Grave Wight from slowing you; helping you escape from pits veers too abstract). You could remove this bonus to flatten the field a little, while still letting the Freedom effects help you out.
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Old December 5, 2013, 15:10   #66
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It never occurred to me in the first place that free action would help against pits or webs, or basically anything that wasn't entrancement. I only found out by reading threads.

I'd be happy to see free action's effects removed from non-entrancement things, especially if it means you can balance things a bit better.
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Old December 5, 2013, 15:18   #67
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Imo, the song of freedom / freedom staff effect isn't known sufficiently by players and the dependence of song of freedom on elbereth (if I recall correctly) doesn't help. I would change this, if anything, but nothing else.

Encumbrance would be a nice value to use, if it would exist other than a binary normal / slow distinction. Say if there were a dexterity penalty for every 50 lb equipment or whatever (but I guess this would be unpopular ). It wouldn't help bluefishs heavily armoured dwarves anyway.
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Old December 5, 2013, 15:56   #68
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...and I thought escaping from pits was based on strength
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Old December 5, 2013, 15:56   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
It never occurred to me in the first place that free action would help against pits or webs, or basically anything that wasn't entrancement. I only found out by reading threads.
Which is funny, because to me it makes intuitive sense for free action to work for a web & I wouldn't of realized it works for entrancement if I hadn't read it in the forums.

Is the image of your sword helping you escape from a pit, actually worse then your boots protecting you from entrancement? In the end I don't care which way the mechanic goes, as long as it clear what free action does/doesn't work for. Preferably without too many of my characters dying to find out.

Oh, almost forgot. Have never lost a character to a pit. Though lost a few to webs, though that's probably more to do with the spider that comes with them.
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Old December 5, 2013, 15:58   #70
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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
...and I thought escaping from pits was based on strength
I think typing HAAAADDDDDOOOOORRRRRRR into the notes also gives you a bonus to escape
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