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Old February 27, 2021, 02:03   #1
squeezy_hotbreath
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Brawler build, missing pieces?

Hi there,

Sil is such a fun game, I'm thrilled to be learning my first non-modern rogue-inspired. Forums and videos have been helpful up to now too.

So far I've been playing almost exclusively brawler builds, putting most stats into Melee and Evasion, taking skills like Whirlwhind, Flanking, SiA, either Exchange Places or Sprinting. A few questions I've been accumulating over the last month:

1) I've regularly died in the 800-900ft range, and was wondering if there were things I'm overlooking. For example, key songs, resistances, stats, etc. Below a dump of my most recent death like this. It's slightly different to what I described above, in that I went for more smithing than I've ever done, but the question still holds.

2) For the Wraiths that show up around 800-900ft, how does one engage these? They have super high hit, and ignore armor, so I don't get it.

3) Smithing - what is the point of building an amulet with +1 Con or Gra, when it costs that Con or Gra to build in the first place? Is the sustain what matters, so you don't have to use a Noldor item in another slot? Still seems like a strictly worse decision since it removes flexibility by sort of locking that +1 amulet into your slot.

Thank you in advance!

#############################
#############################
Race Noldor, House Feanor
Str 6 = 3 +3
Dex 7 = 4 +3
Con 4 = 4 +1 -1
Gra 7 = 3 +4

Game Turn 17,601
Exp Pool 1,712, Total Exp 53,012
Melee (+20,3d12)
Bows (+7,1d9)
Armor [+16,7-19]
Health -3:41
Voice 71:71
Melee 20 = 16 +7 -3
Perception 16 = 9 +7
Archery 7 = 0 +7 -1 +1
Evasion 16 = 9 +7
Stealth 9 = 6 +7 -4
Smithing 18 = 10 +7 +1
Will 12 = 5 +7
Song 9 = 1 +7 +1
Burden 162.6, Max Burden 298.4
Depth 900', Min Depth 700'
Light Radius 5

[Last Messages]

> You hear a door burst open!
> The Wraith touches you.
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> It has a gentle warmth, and a taste as of flowers.
> You feel much better.
> You have 3 Clear Potions of Miruvor (b).
> The Wraith misses you.
> You hit the Wraith.
> The Wraith touches you.
> Low hitpoint warning!
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You miss the Wraith.
> The Wraith touches you.
> You die.

[Screenshot]

#%%####
%......
'..@...
%..W...
%..<...
#######


[Equipment]

a) a Mithril Greatsword of Nargothrond (-2,3d7) [+1] 5.5 lb
It slays dragons and raukar. It cannot be harmed by the
elements. It requires both hands to wield it properly.
b) a Shortbow of Radiance (+0,1d8) 1.5 lb
It fires shining arrows. It can shoot arrows 13 squares
(with your current strength).
c) a Topaz Ring of Protection [+0,1d1]
d) a Sapphire Ring of Free Action
It grants you freedom of movement.
e) a Coral Amulet of Constitution <+1>
It increases your constitution by 1. It sustains your
constitution.
f) a Feanorian Lamp of True Sight
It provides resistance to blindness and hallucination. It
grants you the ability to see invisible creatures.
g) a Mithril Corslet of Venom's End [-1,2d4]
It provides resistance to poison. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
h) a Cloak of Warmth [+2]
It provides resistance to cold.
i) (nothing)
j) a Dwarf Mask of Clarity [-1,1d2]
It provides resistance to fire, confusion, stunning, and
hallucination.
k) a Set of Gauntlets of Ladros (-1) [+0,1d2] {cold resist}
It provides resistance to cold. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
l) a Pair of Greaves of the Iron Hills [-1,1d3] {fear knock resist}
It provides resistance to fear. It lets you stand fast
against your foes. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
m) 32 Arrows (+3)
They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 16 Arrows (Poisoned)
They are branded with venom. They can be shot 13 squares
(with your current strength and bow).


[Inventory]

a) 8 Pale Herbs of Rage
b) 3 Clear Potions of Miruvor
c) 8 Violet Potions of Antidote
d) 2 Vermilion Potions of Quickness
e) 5 Black Potions of Strength
f) a Copper Speckled Potion of Dexterity
g) 2 Smoky Potions of Constitution
h) 2 Brown Potions of Grace
i) a Willow Staff of Light (10 charges)
j) a Gnarled Staff of Revelations (10 charges)
k) an Ivory Staff of Foes (6 charges)
l) a Twisted Staff of Recharging (6 charges)
m) an Obsidian Amulet of Regeneration
It speeds your regeneration (which increases your hunger
while active).
n) an Ivory Amulet of the Vigilant Eye <+3>
It improves your perception by 3. It provides resistance to
hallucination. It grants you the ability: Keen Senses.
o) a Hauberk of Venom's End (-2) [-3,2d5]
It provides resistance to poison.
p) a Kite Shield of Nogrod (-2) [+0,1d7]
It sustains all your stats. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
q) a Curved Sword of Udun (-1,2d5) [+1] 3.5 lb
It is branded with flame. It is cumbersome (it does not
score critical hits).
r) The Shortsword 'Dagmor' (+2,1d8) [+1] <+1> 2.0 lb
It increases your grace by 1. It provides resistance to fear.
It lights the dungeon around you. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
s) The Greatsword 'Glend' (-1,3d6) [+1] <+1> 12.0 lb
It increases your strength by 1. It sustains your strength.
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It requires both hands
to wield it properly.
t) a Mattock (-5,5d2) <+2> 7.0 lb
It improves your tunneling by 2. It requires both hands to
wield it properly.


[Abilities]

Finesse
Follow-Through
Whirlwind Attack
Dodging
Crowd Fighting
Flanking
Heavy Armour Use
Exchange Places
Alchemy
Rauko-Bane
Outwit
Master Hunter
Channeling
Strength in Adversity
Inner Light
Armoursmith
Jeweller
Enchantment
Grace
Song of Challenge


[Enemies]

10 / 13 Wolf
0 / 4 Tanglethorn
7 / 8 Orc skirmisher
2 / 2 Grimhawk
5 / 5 Mewlip
5 / 7 Orc scout
13 / 15 Spider hatchling
2 / 3 Blue serpent
28 / 28 Orc soldier
0 / 6 Madthorn
1 / 2 Gorcrow
12 / 12 Orc archer
14 / 15 White wolf
(seen) Gorgol, the Butcher
47 / 54 Orc warrior
3 / 4 Sword spider
9 / 9 Crebain
2 / 2 Phantom
18 / 18 Attercop
3 / 3 Nightthorn
2 / 2 Green serpent
8 / 10 Mountain troll
3 / 5 Tattered wight
7 / 14 Orc champion
37 / 53 Easterling warrior
10 / 11 Hummerhorn
4 / 5 Orc captain
49 / 60 Warg
5 / 5 Grave wight
7 / 7 Dark serpent
(slain) Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
23 / 26 Whispering shadow
9 / 12 Distended spider
10 / 16 Easterling archer
4 / 4 Twisted bat
(slain) Othrod, the Orc Lord
31 / 38 Snow troll
11 / 12 Barrow wight
6 / 6 Lurking horror
8 / 28 Giant
(slain) Uldor, the Accursed
17 / 29 Easterling spy
6 / 7 Shadow bat
25 / 29 Sulrauko
7 / 7 Fire-drake hatchling
(slain) Ulfang the Black
(slain) Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
20 / 26 Werewolf
12 / 19 Shadow spider
5 / 5 Shadow
4 / 4 Sapphire serpent
(slain) Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
13 / 14 Ruby serpent
5 / 10 Creeping horror
17 / 25 Ringrauko
(seen) Delthaur, Balrog of Terror
(slain) Nan, the Giant
8 / 11 Cave troll
3 / 3 Emerald serpent
1 / 1 Oathwraith
15 / 18 Cat warrior
2 / 2 Amethyst serpent
0 / 1 Kemenrauko
1 / 2 Young cold-drake
1 / 1 Spectre
1 / 2 Greater werewolf
0 / 4 Lesser vampire
1 / 7 Cat assassin
(slain) Scatha the Worm
0 / 1 Young fire-drake
0 / 1 Wraith


[Artefacts]

The Ring of Mairon
The Dagger 'Angrist' (found)
The Shortsword of Amrod
The Shortsword 'Dagmor' (found)
The Longsword 'Orcrist'
The Greatsword 'Glend' (found)
The Quarterstaff of Halmir
The Longbow 'Tawarcun'
The Set of Gloves of the Swallow (found)


[Notes]

Allrounder of the Noldor
Entered Angband on 25 Feb 2021

Turn Depth Note

0 50 ft (Strength in Adversity)
850 100 ft (Jeweller)
972 100 ft Made a Topaz Ring of Protection [+0,1d1] 0.1 lb
1,013 100 ft Made an Obsidian Amulet of Regeneration 0.1 lb
1,094 100 ft Made a Topaz Ring of Protection [+0,1d1] 0.1 lb
2,330 300 ft Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
2,341 300 ft (Crowd Fighting)
3,111 300 ft (Alchemy)
3,678 300 ft (Armoursmith)
3,678 300 ft (Enchantment)
3,791 300 ft Made a Round Shield of Nogrod [+0,1d3] 6.5 lb
3,892 300 ft Made a Set of Gauntlets of Ladros (-1) [+0,1d2] 3.0 lb
3,996 300 ft Made a Pair of Greaves of the Iron Hills [-1,1d3] 9.5
lb
4,104 300 ft Made Studded Leather of Venom's End [-2,1d7] 18.0 lb
4,799 350 ft (Song of Challenge)
5,708 500 ft Found The Set of Gloves of the Swallow
6,519 500 ft (Finesse)
6,524 500 ft (Heavy Armour Use)
6,926 500 ft Encountered Othrod, the Orc Lord
6,972 500 ft (Exchange Places)
6,985 500 ft Slew Othrod, the Orc Lord
7,127 450 ft (Inner Light)
8,260 500 ft (Rauko-Bane)
8,301 500 ft Encountered Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
8,326 500 ft Slew Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
8,350 500 ft Found The Dagger 'Angrist'
8,776 550 ft (Channeling)
9,115 550 ft Encountered Uldor, the Accursed
9,266 550 ft Slew Uldor, the Accursed
9,538 550 ft Encountered Ulfang the Black
9,572 550 ft (Follow-Through)
9,572 550 ft (Whirlwind Attack)
9,880 600 ft (Flanking)
9,889 600 ft Encountered Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
9,942 600 ft Slew Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
10,266 600 ft Encountered Delthaur, Balrog of Terror
11,294 600 ft Encountered Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
12,062 600 ft Encountered Nan, the Giant
12,219 600 ft Made a Dwarf Mask of True Sight [-2,1d2] 11.0 lb
12,312 600 ft Made a Cloak of Warmth [+1] 2.0 lb
12,414 600 ft Made a Hauberk of Venom's End (-2) [-4,2d5] 52.5 lb
12,580 600 ft (Dodging)
13,217 550 ft Slew Ulfang the Black
14,055 600 ft Found The Shortsword 'Dagmor'
14,702 700 ft (Outwit)
14,782 700 ft Slew Nan, the Giant
14,782 700 ft Found The Greatsword 'Glend'
15,456 650 ft Made a Feanorian Lamp of True Sight 1.0 lb
15,609 650 ft Made a Dwarf Mask of Clarity [-1,1d2] 9.5 lb
15,761 650 ft Made a Kite Shield of Nogrod (-2) [+0,1d7] 11.0 lb
15,891 650 ft Made a Hauberk of Venom's End (-2) [-3,2d5] 35.0 lb
16,202 650 ft (Grace)
16,304 650 ft Encountered Scatha the Worm
16,321 650 ft Slew Scatha the Worm
16,331 650 ft Destroyed Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
16,822 700 ft Made a Cloak of Warmth [+2] 3.0 lb
16,984 700 ft Made a Coral Amulet of Constitution <+1> 0.1 lb
17,135 700 ft Made a Mithril Corslet of Venom's End [-1,2d4] 21.5 lb
17,473 800 ft (Master Hunter)

17,601 900 ft Slain by a Wraith.
17,601 900 ft Died on 27 February 2021.

17,601 900 ft How the hell do you take on one of these?
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Old February 27, 2021, 14:28   #2
Infinitum
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That's a very low evasion score. Rule of thumb is Evasion=Melee and 1 of each per depth level minimum. Most of my builds end up with slightly more than 20/20 by 950', preferrably something like 25/25 base when facing Morgoth. +1 melee/evasion is often better than extra abilities.

Quick Study to cut requirements is worth it. Try cutting Smithing entirely and stopping at 6 perception for Bane. I also like 7 stealth early-ish for Opportunist and some ability to choose engagements.
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Old February 28, 2021, 06:05   #3
T-Mick
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Re: Smithing amulets/items with stat costs

If you can find a an herb of restoration (I think they're called, it's been a while) or a relevant stat potion, you can recover the stat cost, giving you a net gain of however much is on the amulet.
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Old February 28, 2021, 13:37   #4
Svalbardcaretaker
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Re: deaths. One thing I died to pretty often are dragons. Make sure to read the manual on how breath damage works! Normal armour is ignored, magical ring armour/song armour applies, shield helps a lot - but if one of the unique dragons blasts you for 25d4 only resistances really help. They stack and each instance halfs the damage you receive. Also dragons have that annoying trance which can oneshot you. To prevent entrancement from dragons you have to stack massive amounts of WILL (mostly via song of staying) and there is the hidden entrancement resistance (+10) on items of freedom of movement.

Another common thing to die to in lategame is unique balrogs - generous consumable use helps a lot, I will pop 3-5 comsumables for the high level balrogs. The general rule from most roguelikes applies: you shouldn't die with your inventory full of buffs in an unbuffed fight. Esp SIL is very generous with potions, you often get a potion back from a dangerous monsters.

Lategame resistances, I aim for 2-3 fire resistances, 1 poison from bow of lammoth/will skill tree. Cold is possible to do without but you have to avoid ancient azure/rainbow snakes.

Re:wraith, they can be pretty brutal because they ignore armor. So you either have to not fight them, fight them at range, or engage with extreme prejudice.


Re:smithing. If you go that deep into smithing its worth it to pick up smithing skill "expertise".You can also regain grace stat points via your starting lembas! Or the herb of restauration. Bootstrapping smithing via artifact gloves that give you smithing abilities+skills and different grace items is viable & quite good!
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Old February 28, 2021, 13:51   #5
wobbly
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Wraiths are nasty particularly if you are in heavy armour which they ignore. It's darkness damage so light radius helps. You could try taking song of trees if you are having a lot of trouble. If you are lucky enough to have a final rest blade you should be able to punch through before they do too much damage.
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Old February 28, 2021, 14:28   #6
squeezy_hotbreath
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Thanks all for your help, going to make another run at it this week!
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Old February 28, 2021, 16:07   #7
Pete Mack
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Final rest also gives FA which helps quite a bit if you don't have good will.
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Old February 28, 2021, 20:02   #8
squeezy_hotbreath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Final rest also gives FA which helps quite a bit if you don't have good will.
FA = Free Action? If so, what are the other hidden stat / buffs I should keep in mind?
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Old February 28, 2021, 20:25   #9
Svalbardcaretaker
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FA = Free action = +10 to escape from pits/webs/against entrancement/slow. Most descriptions in the game are accurate, FA only stark outlier. Just be sure to read the item descriptions and maybe use a staff of self knowledge from time to time so see if you are up to speed with all your buffs.
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Old March 2, 2021, 06:52   #10
seraph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svalbardcaretaker View Post
They stack and each instance halfs the damage you receive.
i thought the second instance reduced damage to 1/3, the third instance to 1/4, etc?
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