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Old May 2, 2009, 07:20   #11
Pete Mack
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Most of these changes would be unbalancing. It would make diving next to impossible for noisy classes, and would thus favor the High-elf/Kobold Rogue even more. The only ones I might tolerate is the suggestion to have teleport other work on single monsters (with a shorter recharge time and more charges), or work on objects on the floor to make it somewhat harder to loot vaults.

But, my usual response to an angband 'exploit' is to dive faster. Suddenly the game is balanced again.
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Old May 2, 2009, 07:21   #12
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Fair enough, I certainly agree with others that sleep, confusion and fear are all next-to-useless later in the game. I just think the discrepancies should be removed: if you want to delay direct combat with a monster, it should depend on the situation whether sleep, confusion, fear, or teleport away is the best option, not teleport away simply because it is the only possibility (as is currently the case, for example, with uniques).
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Old May 2, 2009, 09:16   #13
Garrie
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my main thought is, HELL NO TO is not too powerful.

We haven't all won you know! If you think it's too powerful mod your game.

Indeed a staff of TO would be great, dunno what radius tho (certainly not "all visible monsters" but maybe r3 - r5 centred on player?)
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Old May 2, 2009, 15:37   #14
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Oh no, no!

Next Banishment will remove only one monster, and Mass Banishment only one letter... When (okay, IF) our characters get old, they'll be at the general store telling the mean-looking mercenaries: "In my times, sonny, TeleOther worked with a whole row of monsters and not just one of them. But now these magical things are just not what they were."

I have noticed in my games that TeleOther does appear to be a little too common, but there are always the energy hounds.... and the nice Lich/Balrog/Unique willing to drain all the charges for hp.... and then the fireworks display whenever my warrior character attempts to recharge them....

Or maybe that's just me.

Perhaps they should be made rarer and add a new one that teleports only one monster?
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Old May 2, 2009, 16:12   #15
Donald Jonker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Most of these changes would be unbalancing. It would make diving next to impossible for noisy classes, and would thus favor the High-elf/Kobold Rogue even more.
Not if sleep/confuse/slow monster were made to work. There are two ways of interpreting the state of affairs:

1. Nothing is broken: TelOther is godly and should be. Sleep/confuse/slow are useless except as sources of cash, and that's okay.

2. Everything's broken: TelOther's too powerful and is simply compensation for the fact that sleep/confuse/slow don't work on anything.

If we fix (2) so that each works reliably on monsters, but each has a unique drawback, then instead of relying on one single godly and boring solution, we suddenly have a full set of resources for dealing with vaults, diving and escapes. The game's overall difficulty need not change at all. I really don't see what can possibly be controversial about this.

Increasing the fail rate for/save rate against TelOther in order to group it with sleep/confuse/slow has to be the worst possible thing you can do to anything in the game. These measures have the power to make just about anything useless. And we don't need MORE devices when the ones we already have aren't doing their job.
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Old May 2, 2009, 19:39   #16
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We haven't all won you know! If you think it's too powerful mod your game.
I've never won. Never even come close to winning.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

NOT EVERYONE GETS TO KILL MORGOTH!!!

But that's irrelevant.

But this isn't. I don't object to TO in and of itself, but it's far to common, cheap, and effective as a vault clearing tool.

It's an item that can be bought cheaply or found in the DL30's and it can effectively banish any monster in the game. Oh, and not just one, but you can effectively nullify MANY uniques in only a single turn. And if they should return, you can just hit them with it again. The ONLY downside is that you can't collect any XP (but you can pick up all the juicy artifacts just lying around unprotected), but if you could kill them effectively you probably wouldn't be TO'ing them in the first place. Morgoth himself is powerless to resist it.

If it's going to stay the way it is, it should rank up there with 'deep artifacts' it terms of price and rarity. After all, it does things that other artifacts could only dreams of... like produce more and better artifacts.
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Old May 2, 2009, 20:44   #17
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@buzzkill

Your statement about banishing every monster in a vault is probably false. Trying to clear a vault, even with teleport other, is a risky proposition. When you decide to do it, you are making a bet that you won't get killed in order to get loot. It's just like any other part of the game -- tradeoff vs risk. All it takes is a single AMHD or Greater Balrog or Azriel to wake up and get the first move, and you are dead instantly.

Most notorious--to me--is the "Reward is Worth It" vault. Lots of good stuff, but incredibly dangerous to try to fetch it.
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Old May 2, 2009, 21:26   #18
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I think the current teleport other is required to make up for the equally unbalanced summoning mechanic. If you want to make teleport other only affect one monster, then summoning should only be able to summon one monster for starters.

If your objection is just to the vault clearing aspects, there are other alternatives. E.g. , NPP solves the problem by giving the objects to the monsters. I don't like it because I cannot get over the fact that monsters that cannot carry objects do carry objects.
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Old May 2, 2009, 23:09   #19
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I think the current teleport other is required to make up for the equally unbalanced summoning mechanic. If you want to make teleport other only affect one monster, then summoning should only be able to summon one monster for starters.
FWIW, fixing (mass) sleep would solve this little dilemma as well.
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Old May 2, 2009, 23:52   #20
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Your statement about banishing every monster in a vault is probably false. Trying to clear a vault, even with teleport other, is a risky proposition. When you decide to do it, you are making a bet that you won't get killed in order to get loot. It's just like any other part of the game -- tradeoff vs risk. All it takes is a single AMHD or Greater Balrog or Azriel to wake up and get the first move, and you are dead instantly.

Most notorious--to me--is the "Reward is Worth It" vault. Lots of good stuff, but incredibly dangerous to try to fetch it.
Point taken.

I'm probably not the most qualified to speak on this, as my portfolio lacks any really deep dungeon experience. However, when I get into a tough spot or see something that I just have to have, it's the first thing I reach for because it's almost fail-safe, even against an enemy or enemies that I have no hope of beating in a fight. I just kinda assumed that the deeper you get, the nastier the monsters, the better the treasures, and the same relative risk, meaning that as long as you get the first move, or can survive one attack, pending successful activation, you're golden. Sure there's a risk, but if the 'big risk' you're taking is betting that your sleeping enemy doesn't wake and moves first, then, it seems to me, not that great of a risk considering the likely reward. Furthermore, should one even be contemplating a taking on a monster that can kill you in a single turn. Of course not, unless of course, you have nearly infallible way of dealing him. More often than not, I think TO is the preferred way to 'minimize the risk' because it works so well. Too well IMO.

My apologies if my remarks are a little off the factual base. That's simply my lack of experience showing.
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