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Old April 13, 2018, 21:19   #1
Estie
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New Angband: rant

Recently I have played Angband again and initially wanted to test the new classes, but as I started to play I realized that I was forcing myself to play. I didnt enjoy it. So instead, I loaded up old 3.0.9 and had a blast, at least till the endgame started with its nightmare of sorting through loads of loot.

There have been hundreds of small changes, most of which I dont like and I have been posting my opinion throughout the process, but alas, the changes were made and thats that. None of them individually are of dealbreaking proportion, but all combined have managed to ruin it for me.

A few points:

I want boots of free action on level 20, stealth on 40 and speed +10 on 60 - not speed +3 on 20, +6 on 40, +10 on 60. Clearcut, powerfull, noticable bonuses with different qualities that force decisions instead of pointless and linear power trickle.

At some point money and drops on lvl 1 were nerfed, presumably to discourage farming. I am supposed to buy 2 recall srolls first thing when back in town, but I am human and sometimes forget, or maybe there is an expensive item I can barely afford, then I am going to farm for a ?WoR. So, ever since that change I have spent hours of time farming level 1: for ?WoR money when I previously could just clear it once and be good to go.

What was wrong with using a (precious) ?Banishment to get rid of Qs before opening a vault ? Or ?massbanishment to get rid of a sizable sector of non-uniques ?

There are 100 things like that; instead of listing them all, I refer to older posts I made. When there is a gameplay difference between old and new, chances are I prefer old.

More generally speaking, I blame the design philosophy of "trying to discourage bad playstyles". I think it would be better to focus on making sure that there is a "good" way of playing Angband, and not worry about "abusive" techniques. If someone wants to place a golfball on a walk-around-in-circles macro key to farm lice, or kill blue wormmasses to level up, or destruct vaults to get at artifacts, let them have their fun. Point at the right path, dont try to force people to walk it.

I could have made better points some time ago when I was considering playing the new classes. Time has passed and my memory and focus got muddled. I delayed this post, because it was unpleasant to make. But it had to be done.

With all this, maybe I am alone and everyone else is happy with the new version. If so, I wish you the best. As for me, I am back to playing old versions, if at all, and yearn for someone to introduce rune id.
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Old April 13, 2018, 21:42   #2
Antoine
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Maybe we need a variant 'NewOldAngband'
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Old April 14, 2018, 01:42   #3
Moving Pictures
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
What was wrong with using a (precious) ?Banishment to get rid of Qs before opening a vault ? Or ?massbanishment to get rid of a sizable sector of non-uniques ?.
Not sure what you're talking about? I just started 4.1.2, and accidentally discovered that a mass banish cast outside a vault disperses the non-uniques within. T'was not my intention to do so, but @ was caught up in a pitched battle with a big name unique outside (release from) said vault, and a straight-up banish wasn't going to clear the decks to undead-o-orc.
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Old April 14, 2018, 03:30   #4
Estie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moving Pictures View Post
Not sure what you're talking about? I just started 4.1.2, and accidentally discovered that a mass banish cast outside a vault disperses the non-uniques within. T'was not my intention to do so, but @ was caught up in a pitched battle with a big name unique outside (release from) said vault, and a straight-up banish wasn't going to clear the decks to undead-o-orc.
Not sure - I must have wasted a dozen banishment scrolls trying to figure out what is considered a vault and what isnt - and I thought I had tried the mass version too, establishing that it didnt affect vault inhabitants - but maybe not and I just made assumptions. I cant remember.
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Old April 14, 2018, 03:41   #5
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moving Pictures View Post
Not sure what you're talking about? I just started 4.1.2, and accidentally discovered that a mass banish cast outside a vault disperses the non-uniques within.
Let's be clear - Estie is talking about the "experimental-feature" branch of Vanilla, not the plain (current) 4.1.2 Vanilla.

I tentatively agree with many, though not all, of Estie's comments, but I've only played one feature branch character so far.

The banish, mass banish, having to figure out what is a special room or vault and what isn't, (wasting many scroll/charges in the process), and that somehow it is "wrong" to banish Q's, v's, and Z's before entering a vault - so someone else's idea of "correct" gameplay gets imposed on me, yeah, I find that distasteful.
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Old April 14, 2018, 04:00   #6
Pete Mack
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Banishment is the least important of his points. The main one is the smooth power curve in 4.x. 3.0is tougher for a number of reasons, but the main one was equipment availability. There is some stuff with monster movement where it now takes longer for them to chase you through locked doors. Also, rogue stealth is nuts, mage mana goes further, certain potions and scrolls are easier to come by...

The one change for the harder is object detection...but then I end up playing rogue anyway.
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Old April 14, 2018, 06:37   #7
Estie
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the Short Sword 'Sting' (1d7) (+7,+8) <+1, +3, +2>
--------------------------------------------------
+1 strength.
+1 dexterity.
+1 constitution.
+3 speed.
+2 attack speed.
+1 light.
Slays undead, orcs, animals, evil creatures.
Provides resistance to light.
Provides protection from fear.
Cannot be harmed by acid.
Grants the ability to see invisible things. Prevents paralysis.

What is this ? +1 str, dex, con - really ?
The original had +2 - either way, the main feature here is the +2 attacks, and if the creator of the original version had translated "makes the wielder a hero" with "+2 all combat stats", fine.
Now it got nerfed - a move I disagree with, for reasons posted elsewhere - but if you absolutely have to make it weaker, for Christ´s sake give it some character. Make it +3 to str only, or dex, or whatever you think is more tolkienish, but not this tastless sludge of +1 to everything.

Is this sword important ? Absolutely not,even moreso for me who never plays with standarts. But whoever made this thing has no regard for the item puzzle aspect of Angband.

/rant
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Old April 14, 2018, 06:50   #8
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i know, right? give back Elessar the (+7,+7) it deserves.
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Old April 14, 2018, 07:37   #9
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"Elessar used to have (+7, +7)? What version? That does sound very appropriate. Maybe I should try out some old versions of Angband.

It was very disappointing playing in my early days of Angband finding really cool, deep artifact amulets with their great, thematic texts and cool names only to discover that *all* of them were useless once I found "Trickery. And then how lame it felt that an item called "trickery", a word associated with cheapness and gimmickry, such as brawn, nimbleness, intellect, contemplation, toughness, ie. a word connected to the lesser of the true form, was the most powerful amulet, and furthermore, not even an artifact!

If any change be made to Angband, make Trickery not the best amulet when it's not even an artifact, or better, leave it as is, make it an artifact and change its name to something more evocative of its bossness, even something as simple as "Amulet of the Elves" would be a huge improvement (stealth, dexterity and speed all being thematically fitting to elvish qualities).

Basically, when I found "Elessar, I thought I had found a really powerful object, only to be disappointed by learning it really wasn't that useful. Then when I found "Trickery, I thought I had found some object I was meant to find earlier in the game because of its name, and was weirdly disappointed that this object that "shouldn't" have been powerful was powerful. One of the big appeals of Angband for me was that powerful objects had fitting names and descriptions to them. I don't know about other people, but I think of "Trickery as an amulet that Grima would wear (it even has similar stats to Grima's boots), not a hero of Middle-Earth, yet its the most heroic amulet there is.

That all said, the trickery/amulet business is a quirk in game design I've gotten used to. Every game I've ever played has had oddities about them that seemed poorly thought out.
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Old April 14, 2018, 13:09   #10
Werbaer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
the Short Sword 'Sting' (1d7) (+7,+8) <+1, +3, +2>

What is this ? +1 str, dex, con - really ?
The original had +2 - either way, the main feature here is the +2 attacks, and if the creator of the original version had translated "makes the wielder a hero" with "+2 all combat stats", fine.
Now it got nerfed - a move I disagree with, for reasons posted elsewhere - but if you absolutely have to make it weaker, for Christ´s sake give it some character. Make it +3 to str only, or dex, or whatever you think is more tolkienish, but not this tastless sludge of +1 to everything.
The original had +2 attacks as it's main feature, too.
Since back then there was only one pval, each other bonus had to be +2 too (or 0), so it got +2 Str, Dex, Con.
The Original didn't have any speed bonus. I think the +3 speed makes the current version much stronger than the original, even if the stat bonus is a bit lower.
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