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Old July 9, 2018, 06:53   #11
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luneya View Post
That proposal would work on a game with tiny levels. At present, V is not such a game, nor do I expect it to become one.

I'm fine with the status quo on level feelings. If you don't like having them, you can just turn them off.
Yeah currently in V, I just turn them off. I'm fine with the older style other variants have which is vague enough to be alright. I suspect this wont be a V thing, I just put it here in-case anyone else was interested. For O I'll just leave Vs system in unless the old system is simple to re-implement. However when I build on that for my own variant I don't want to keep a system that I think breaks basic balance & has so little going for it to justify it:

Should players really be able to reliably hunt for Thancs in the 1st 5 dungeon levels? They drop too reliably early, but the drop rates not the only problem there.

Basic rule of loot is for better go deeper, face worse enemies. Why is there a mechanic to stay at the same depth, find better loot, face weaker enemies?

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Originally Posted by Thraalbee View Post
As long as we keep getting up to 2-3 vaults and special rooms per level that is going to be hard to implement. I think those are too plentiful, but that is what we see today. You could just ignore vault guardians, but then you would possibly be better of with the current scheme where a high monster value often equals one or more vaults which is important information.
How many do you think would be good? For forced descent (anyone else can repeat levels for more). I actually don't mind level feelings being useless by the stage you have telepathy & the like. I also don't mind it being uninformative, it's a feeling not a detect. Treating it otherwise is what breaks the current system. It should be a minor thing for most characters with some semi-useful stuff for high perception, no book characters.
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Old July 9, 2018, 09:32   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraalbee View Post
As long as we keep getting up to 2-3 vaults and special rooms per level that is going to be hard to implement. I think those are too plentiful, but that is what we see today. You could just ignore vault guardians, but then you would possibly be better of with the current scheme where a high monster value often equals one or more vaults which is important information.
There's also an argument for the reverse too. The trouble is there aren't a lot of options for making the last levels more dangerous other then shrinking space, uping monster density or uping the danger on things that already have too many hps to start with. Big leaky vaults give you a timer mechanism to flood a level with nasties.

Of course there's always just making most of the late game passwall, diggers & dungeon wreckers. Just mess with people building anti-summon corriders to the point you can use a saner number of enemies.

Edit: Maybe large late game dragons could dig? but only if they can't find a reasonable path through shoving aside smaller critters?

Last edited by wobbly; July 9, 2018 at 09:41.
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Old July 9, 2018, 16:27   #13
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Should players really be able to reliably hunt for Thancs in the 1st 5 dungeon levels? They drop too reliably early, but the drop rates not the only problem there.
Found the code for level feelings & it's actually worse then I thought, it's pretty much programed to specifically create this exact problem:

/* Apply a minimum feeling if there's an artifact on the level */
if (c->good_item && x < 641) return 60;

So at low levels an artifact is going to shine through at a very specific pt. No wonder experienced players like Ingwe know the no. for item feel that = high probability of early *thanc.
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Old July 10, 2018, 22:47   #14
Ingwe Ingweron
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No wonder experienced players like Ingwe know the no. for item feel that = high probability of early *thanc.
Often more important than that early "6" in levels 1 to 3, is an early "4" for Free Action. In a comp, there's no time to waste scumming for a lucky 'thanc, but a "4" comes much more often. It may be my imagination, but when diving fast I find FA hard to come by if I don't get it within the first 5 levels.
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Old July 11, 2018, 10:57   #15
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As a FK player I don't remember any special levels. There were the vaults of course. And {special} levels that had an artifact on. Or a player ghost (where they still in FK? It's going back a few years)

It is of course possible that the development went down that way before being tidied up by Ben and it just wasn't the version I was playing
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Old July 11, 2018, 14:59   #16
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Originally Posted by Huqhox View Post
As a FK player I don't remember any special levels. There were the vaults of course. And {special} levels that had an artifact on. Or a player ghost (where they still in FK? It's going back a few years)
Oh yeah, player ghosts! Those were a thing in the frog-knows that I played. I got the Trident of Ulmo from one of them at like 500' and it carried that character for most of the game.
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Old July 11, 2018, 15:57   #17
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Were they as bad as nethacks ghosts? There you had all the loot+whatever killed you. Fun at times but 0 concern for balance. Used to have to delete a bunch of bones files because a kobold polymorphed into a dragon and killed you leaving a semi-permanent death trap level.
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Old July 11, 2018, 16:05   #18
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Were they as bad as nethacks ghosts? There you had all the loot+whatever killed you. Fun at times but 0 concern for balance. Used to have to delete a bunch of bones files because a kobold polymorphed into a dragon and killed you leaving a semi-permanent death trap level.
Angband ghosts were really just semi-randomly-generated "unique" monsters that pulled names from your bones file. It's possible that their power was based on the level of the dead character and that they got monster spells based on the class, but they certainly didn't get your gear.

As an added kicker, I swear I remember once encountering a live "ghost" (identified as e.g. "Foo the Ranger" instead of "Foo the Ranger Ghost") in the town. Presumably that was because I had multiple non-dead characters in my scores file. Fighting powerful enemies in the town is pretty dangerous.
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Old July 12, 2018, 08:11   #19
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Fighting powerful enemies in the town is pretty dangerous.
Especially in Frog-knows where you could polymorph townies into Great Wyrms of Balance...
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Old July 12, 2018, 15:06   #20
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I had heard that special levels were planned for Angband but didn't actually make it in.

Would be neat to try to convert those layouts into a format we can use for a modern variant.
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