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Old May 3, 2015, 16:24   #41
buzzkill
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OK. Kinda skipped ahead in the thread, not reading every post. Rune based ID seems OK, but eventually experienced players will once again want something more streamlined. I fear, and have for some time now, that Angband development caters to career players, while lamenting the fact that it can't attract new novice players. We're building a theme park with only rides that one violently Ill and then wonder why no one shows up despite our polite staff and free admission.

Anyhoo, changes in ID seem like a bandaid for a inferior squelch system, which we surely have. I'd much rather effort be put into refining that. What if we could squelch unlearned properties and also squelch per property/per item type. The IMO would necessitate the removal of "unsquelch" (but you would still be able to set future objects to no longer be squelched), but with progress comes a price.
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Old May 3, 2015, 18:37   #42
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If you guys are really serious about wanting an automatic squelch option for 1 in 2000 items, then you should do the following: Assign a string/set of tags to each item and allow the player to define squelch rules as regexps or some simplified version of regexps (such things can be gotten through standard libraries and would be very straightforward to add). If you feel ambitious, make a little menu to generate these in a user friendly way for people who don't want to learn how to use whatever syntax is chosen.
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Old May 3, 2015, 22:30   #43
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I would enjoy Nick's system much more than the current system. It's interesting to ID the various potions, scrolls and devices as you progress through a game. It is a tedious slog to ID the hudreds/thousands of weapons and armor you encounter. I usually just modify the game to *ID* all weapons/armor/ammo on creation, but this proposal allows for unknown equipment with as little effort as possible.
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Old May 3, 2015, 22:57   #44
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The id minigame has been around for a long time, so it would be a bit of a shock at first to see it neutered, but I think after a little while I would find it hard to believe I put up with the tedium of the old system for so long.
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Old May 4, 2015, 02:02   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Anyhoo, changes in ID seem like a bandaid for a inferior squelch system, which we surely have. I'd much rather effort be put into refining that. What if we could squelch unlearned properties and also squelch per property/per item type. The IMO would necessitate the removal of "unsquelch" (but you would still be able to set future objects to no longer be squelched), but with progress comes a price.
The problems are orthogonal.

ID addresses the question of "how do I know whether an item is worthwhile or not"

squelch addresses the problem of "how do I sort the worthwhile items from the not worthwhile ones quickly"
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Old May 4, 2015, 07:36   #46
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On the original proposal, current id works well enough and doesn't require immediate fixing. Something rune based is the long term goal but until we have that, we can keep id as it is.
On the rune system, an artifact is just an item with some collection of runes. It can have some very special or rare runes or unusual combinations but otherwise it works the same as an ego item. If you pick it up you will recognize some runes and notice that there are a few more you don't know yet.
On the squelch topic, an item should only be squelched if all its runes are marked as squelch. So you could squelch fire res fairly early on but only items that have no other nice properties but fire res will get squelched.
On to hit an to damage modifiers, I like the idea to identify everything that is weaker that something you have already seen. Additionally power and accuracy could be runes that just give an independent +10 to damage/ to hit. So you would pick up a bow as say 'bow (+5,+8) one rune, shoot something with it and then notice, oh, it's a rune of power, the bow is (+5,+18).
Oh and my general understanding of rune bases system was that it should encourage and enable id by use on everything, so magic id possibilities should be reduced to a minimum, like dungeon found scrolls only.
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Old May 4, 2015, 09:02   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Three stages of item knowledge:
  1. Item is sensed - as with current Treasure Detection. The object list shows an "unknown object"
  2. Item is seen - as currently when the player actually sees the object, or Rogue's Object Detection spell. The object list shows a Sling (x2), or a Pink Potion (if the flavour isn't known) or a Potion of Infravision (if the flavour is known).
  3. Item is known - as currently after reading ?ID, or getting full ID by use. The object list shows the full name.

Stage 1 and 2 are gained as currently. Stage 3 is gained immediately on stepping onto the item square. Magical ID and ID by use are obsolete and removed.

Variation: Flavoured, non-wearable items still need to be ID'd by use.

Please shoot this down as hard as you can, I'll try to defend it, and we'll see if it's still flying when we're done.
This makes ID easy, and because basic nature of humans is being lazy, if we then introduce rune-based ID that makes ID non-automatic, IOW harder, it will raise resistance.

I'd say change directly to rune-based once it is done and not change ID before.
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Old May 4, 2015, 09:09   #48
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
[Rune-based ID]
Next question - what does that even mean? I think there's a general understanding that once you've recognised a property once on an item, you always recognise that property, but what constitutes a property?
Binary flags are easy, every flag equals a rune. Variable values (to_hit, to_dam, AC, PVAL, charges etc.) are hard. How to detect how much of which item has?
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Old May 4, 2015, 12:22   #49
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No point of introducing more complexity with another system, the current system is fine. More simplification would be to introduce ADOM's ID system:
- flavored items are never IDed, you need to cast the spell/read a scroll on one
- unflavored items are fully IDed when wielded/worn
- rest is "easily known"
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Old May 4, 2015, 12:52   #50
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
No point of introducing more complexity with another system, the current system is fine.
I think goal for this change is to remove tedium of ID while keeping the excitement of finding new things. I think rune-based ID does that pretty much as well as it can be done.

It also makes more sense than you not being able to know that this billionth HA weapon is not HA weapon before you use spell on it. Less suspension of disbelief required.

It is (or at least should be) less complex for player, not more complex, at deeper levels. No more ID-magic required. Complexity is beneath the UI, in the code.

Current system is fine, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be better. This change does change a bit how game is played, but doesn't affect difficulty of the game nearly at all. It is repetitive action tedium remover and as such I welcome it.
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