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Old July 27, 2010, 21:16   #11
Daniel Fishman
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How about, limit the total number of arrows in the quiver to, say, 300 (plucking a number out of the air), but keep the large number of slots (quite possibly even increase it).
This gives the effects wanted by {30 per slot, 10 slots} but might mitigate d_m's concerns.
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:19   #12
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
It makes easy to carry tons of different ego ammunition when you find it--rather than devoting a full slot to carting around 8 arrows of slay evil you just throw them in the quiver and don't worry about it. The number 10 was just what S and NPP were using which is why I used it (the ticket Takkaria opened mentioned taking the quiver from those variants).
My main complaint about quiver is that it can expand to another letter in inventory pushing something out of the pack. Usually an artifact you use as a swap.

Having it restricted to 99 items total would work for me. 50 or 60 could work too (three 20 stack or four 15 stack). Rest you can carry in inventory. It would still function as designed: allow carrying many small stacks of different ammo without using unnecessary inventory space. I have no problem if it has 99 slots for those 99 items, main thing is that it should not expand to another letter in inventory (expanding quiver?)
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:26   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Say you have 10 stacks of 29 arrows:

Using the method of lowering the max per slot to 30 you can get all those arrows in your quiver and take three slots of inventory.

Using the method of lowering quiver slots to 5 you can store half the arrows in your quiver and the rest in inventory, taking a total of 7 slots of inventory. even using 7 quiver slots this would still be 6 slots of inventory

This gives 3-4 slots difference in amount of space taken by same items. This seems fairly significant to me.
I see what you mean. Now I think I like lowering the quiver slot size is worse.

Remember that 99 plain arrows will now take 4 quiver slots, not one (3 slots if you stop at 90 arrows). That seems pretty annoying. It will certainly be a pain in the early game where you will mostly be using generic arrows.

Also, you're going to end up with some terrible UI problems. Say you have no free pack slots, 35 arrows in the pack, and 99 arrows in the quiver. If you try to wield the 35 arrows it will fail unless you drop the arrows first because there will be at least 5 arrows left over, leaving no space for the quiver to "expand." I'm trying to imagine writing an error message to explain this.

The current quiver already has some weirdness to deal with, but the nice thing is that if you can put arrows in your pack you can always put them in the quiver (until you use up the 10 quiver slots).

So I guess I do actually like Eddie's suggestion better, in that it preserves that behavior. I still think that reducing the quiver size is a fine solution (unless you share Eddie's views about correct quiver function) because we all got along fine having a size 0 quiver, so going from a size 10 quiver to a size 5-7 is still a net win).
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:29   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
My main complaint about quiver is that it can expand to another letter in inventory pushing something out of the pack. Usually an artifact you use as a swap.
I think that this can be fixed independently of any "weakening" we do. In fact, I thought I tried to make sure it wouldn't do this unless you explicitly wielded something from the floor (e.g. not auto pickup).

So sorry if this has been you driving crazy... I will see if I can replicate this, although if you give me a specific scenario where you notice it that will make it easier.
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:42   #15
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The appropriate size for the quiver is not the average stack size. That would make half of the stacks you find overflow the quiver. You want the quiver a standard deviation above the average size. Or a very rough guestimate of the same.
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:47   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Say you have 10 stacks of 29 arrows:

Using the method of lowering the max per slot to 30 you can get all those arrows in your quiver and take three slots of inventory.
This is not what I was intending to describe, so apologies if I was unclear. My suggestion was to make it so that each slot in the quiver can hold a maximum of 30 projectiles -- however, these projectiles can be of any type. So your 10 stacks of 29 arrows is 290 projectiles, which means using 10 slots in the quiver (and thus 10 slots overall of inventory space). However, you could also have 3 stacks of 30 projectiles and 10 stacks of 5 projectiles each, which is 140 projectiles total and 5 slots.

In other words, "quiver compression" would only kick in when you have many small stacks of ammo.

That said, d_m has some good points about potential UI problems. I'm not certain how to respond to them.

Last edited by Derakon; July 27, 2010 at 22:36.
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:49   #17
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I think that this can be fixed independently of any "weakening" we do. In fact, I thought I tried to make sure it wouldn't do this unless you explicitly wielded something from the floor (e.g. not auto pickup).

So sorry if this has been you driving crazy... I will see if I can replicate this, although if you give me a specific scenario where you notice it that will make it easier.
Wield from floor when pack is full. Message "you have no room for this and that" and "you see this and that" are too similar to get my attention.

Anyway quiver expanding to another letter is IMO "unrealistic". I see quiver as fixed size specialized expansion of the backpack using one slot there. One slot. Quiver can't magically expand to another quiver when there is not enough room for additional arrows. 99 is max you can have in single inventory slot, so that's what quiver max size should be. 99 ammo.
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Old July 27, 2010, 21:58   #18
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Would your quiver still have a cap on how many types of ammo it could hold? If not I feel like that will end up being a nightmare to code correctly (and would probably still be buggy/confusing for the user). If so, then we're just arguing about what the constant should be.
I believe that it would be important to limit the quiver to 10 items. That allows for UI where it is understood that numbers '0' through '9' refer to ammo and letters to non-ammo. Then you can use the @C5 for macros for command C affecting non-ammo, and @Ce for macros acting on ammo and get unified @ handling instead of the dreadful f0 kind of thing. There are other reasons too.

I could do the quiver now, I think quite stably, except for the selection code. When you read a scroll from your pack, you might see choices e through j if that is where the scrolls are. If you read from the floor, the choices are a-f even if the 6 scrolls are at different places in the floor stack. If you think about it for a while, you can see how things might have been implemented in an ad-hoc approach that is hard to modify. It is worse than that.
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Old July 27, 2010, 22:03   #19
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The quiver issues are an important side effect, but why is no one commenting on the main change?

What is the maximum number of consumables that should be allowed to stack in a slot for best gameplay?

The 99 limit appears to me to just be the max you can describe with two characters. I've always thought it seemed high. Would you feel inconvenienced in a bad way if you could only carry 50 !CCW or ?phase in a slot?
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Old July 27, 2010, 22:12   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The quiver issues are an important side effect, but why is no one commenting on the main change?

What is the maximum number of consumables that should be allowed to stack in a slot for best gameplay?

The 99 limit appears to me to just be the max you can describe with two characters. I've always thought it seemed high. Would you feel inconvenienced in a bad way if you could only carry 50 !CCW or ?phase in a slot?
I would be fine with reducing the slot size. I don't know what I think the lowest it could be is, but 50 would be fine.

Like I said, it would probably break save files, so that's not ideal. This change would probably need to wait until some other savefile-breaking changes pile up.
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