Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 19, 2011, 23:30   #11
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,023
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulian View Post
2. If you're at the point of fighting disenchant breathers (balance wyrms, the Tarrasque), you probably have rDis for the damage reduction, so this change doesn't impact the end game.
Careful with your assumptions there. This might possibly be true in a standart game (Celeborn, Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Calris, Anduril, Belthronding are all endgame-quality artifacts that you are reasonably likely to find and are worth using for other reasons than disenchant resist), but in my experience it certainly isn't the case for randart games. Disenchantment resistance in those games is rare and rarely paired with other abilities that make the item worth using or even carrying as a swap.

As a general rule, the only resistances you should assume the player has are basic 4 and poison. The only protections you should assume the player has are blindness, confusion, and free action. Everything else may be unavailable. Obviously lacking a resistance is going to make the game harder, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you're saying that making disenchantment ruin your equipment is only an issue in a fairly narrow window of the game, which in my experience simply isn't the case. I'm willing to take on disenchantment breathers despite the risk, because the odds of them breathing and the consequences of that breath are, in my very rough estimation, less than the potential benefits of fighting them (though I don't melee monsters with disenchant attacks). Change that so that disenchantment permanently removes other, more critical abilities? No way I'll be fighting disenchanters without the resist. Is that really desirable?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 00:07   #12
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 55
Posts: 8,337
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
If you're going to buff monster disenchant attacks, I'd suggest going with the O approach of killing temporary effects - timed blessing, shield, resists, etc - rather than messing with objects. I tend to agree that having your stuff messed with is very annoying; some annoyance is good, but this might be a step too far.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 00:09   #13
Taha
Adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 128
Taha is on a distinguished road
My last game every 3rd or 4th artifact had rdisenchant, but rconf only ever appeared on two weapons. Randarts are randarts, and vary wildly; I don't think their ability distribution should play a role in any decisions, or if it does it just means we need to improve them in some way.

And I already find disenchanters never worth fighting. A temporary extra challenge if a winged horror or something gets off a breath isn't that big a deal. As far as losing ESP, poison resistance and whatever else all at once being a death sentence, you can survive at depth without any of those, its just harder. If you lost too much, save a scroll of restore item or two at home. They even show up in the alchemist from time to time, not that hard to keep on hand. I already do this, especially with the slot cost minimal with no selling.
________
Buy iolite

Last edited by Taha; August 14, 2011 at 14:59.
Taha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 03:46   #14
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Is this the making the game harder thread, or the let's attempt to make the game harder without actually making it any harder thread. If one person can still beat it without resulting to the cheesiest of tactics, then I say we're still OK. I know you're all tired of my drum-beat repetitive posts, so I'll back off now, after this.

What if, in the rare instance of a disenchantment attack, followed the unfortunate event of a failed saving throw (deeper items more likely to resist), that all the magical properties in the game were weighted (as they probably already are) so that inconsequential properties were more likely to be stricken from a item than let's say, rConf or ESP or immunity to this or that.

IMO, this isn't about newbs, or making the game better or harder. Players concerned about the changes suggested here know the game all too well, and know how to deal with situations that might arise if suggested changes were to be made. As far as I can see, permanent disenchantment would be a *rare* occurrence, more rare still that some singular game breaking trait (ahem) be removed. If suicide or scumming is your solution to such problems, then I think there's a fundamental flaw in your approach to the game that needs to be addressed. Winning isn't everything.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 04:25   #15
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,023
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Is this the making the game harder thread, or the let's attempt to make the game harder without actually making it any harder thread.
It's the "making the game harder without adding mechanics that introduce negative fun" thread. In other words, several of us think that significantly damaging the player's equipment decreases enjoyment of the game. Does it make it harder? Yes. That doesn't mean that it's unalloyed good.

Remember the relief and happiness you felt the last time you found the item that finally patched that hole in your equipment which allowed you to shuffle around four other bits of armor, thereby boosting your stats and covering more incidental resistance holes? Now imagine the pain caused by having that all taken away from you. The game should not impose significant negative progress on you. You may not agree with me on that premise, but I suspect most people here would.

Rarity doesn't make it acceptable. A flawed mechanic is flawed if it happens every time or if it only happens one time in a thousand.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 08:32   #16
Krom
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
Krom is on a distinguished road
Weaving together a set of resists and capabilities can take a fair bit of time, and often times the specific mix of powers can influence ones strategy. I often times find myself sitting in town weighing pros and cons of gear. Having finally chosen my active set and recalling back down, suddenly finding carefully thought-out approach to resists and defense suddenly has a gaping hole poked in it thanks to RNG strikes me as not fun.
Krom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 09:00   #17
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
If you're going to buff monster disenchant attacks, I'd suggest going with the O approach of killing temporary effects - timed blessing, shield, resists, etc - rather than messing with objects. I tend to agree that having your stuff messed with is very annoying; some annoyance is good, but this might be a step too far.
Looks like that's the consensus - maybe I finally found a basis for my variant! Timo even gave me the name.

Thanks to buzzkill for reassuring me that I'm not totally mad.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 09:08   #18
fyonn
Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 217
fyonn is on a distinguished road
I kinda like the idea myself. I don't think that losing some of these abilities is instant quit time. I've had several guys wander round level 70+ without rPois, rConf, rBlind or ESP. sure, losing them will be an "oh crap" moment, potentially followed by bailing, but it just means you need to be damn careful and reassess your equipment. maybe returning to town to swap things round until you can restore your items etc.

but surely that makes it interesting?
fyonn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 09:37   #19
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,009
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
If you're going to buff monster disenchant attacks, I'd suggest going with the O approach of killing temporary effects - timed blessing, shield, resists, etc - rather than messing with objects.
+1 - I'd be very happy to see a "dispel magic" monster spell in V.

The other way to buff monster disenchantment attacks, of course, is to remove the "restore item" effect!!

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20, 2011, 11:19   #20
Nomad
Knight
 
Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 958
Nomad is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
If you're going to buff monster disenchant attacks, I'd suggest going with the O approach of killing temporary effects - timed blessing, shield, resists, etc - rather than messing with objects.
Plus, you know what's good about this approach? For once, it affects everybody else more than warriors!

Alternatively/additionally, how about disenchantment as a timed status effect itself? It doesn't remove the properties from your equipment, but while your character is disenchanted, abilities are temporarily blocked, so your ESP/see invisible/free action/etc. all stop working for a while. If it's cumulative with every breath, you could be vulnerable for a nasty length of time afterwards, and fighting disenchanters with other monsters around would be pretty chancy. (Especially if we introduced packs of Disenchanter Hounds.)
Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Making the game harder, take two Magnate Vanilla 223 March 10, 2011 20:42
Winning a slightly harder game fizzix AAR 16 December 23, 2010 07:20
Making the game harder Derakon Vanilla 166 June 24, 2010 19:45
Winner in the making? Nero AAR 17 May 22, 2010 22:44
Light weapons should be harder to enchant to-dam, heavy ones to-hit ekolis Vanilla 11 July 15, 2007 00:07


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.