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Old June 2, 2009, 23:43   #11
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarlost View Post
Is there some way to find out what the base artifact is? I can't think of anything nearly this lame that doesn't have an activation.
Neither can I. I can work it out if the OP sends me the randart.log file (there are no names in the file, so you need to scan it for a warhammer with those plusses, and look up the artifact number).
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Old June 3, 2009, 00:01   #12
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Compared to how it used to be.
That makes no sense. Speed items are cheaper to buy from shops than they used to be, but speed is no less powerful, nor less common, than it has ever been. I don't understand your point here.
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There's no need to factor. 30 lbs = -1 speed is totally obvious. The only problem is that you are approximating non-linear things with an additive power ranking. That's a general problem, not a "what is the penalty of weight" problem.
30lbs = -1 speed is not obvious at all, as the amount of weight that gives -1 speed varies by STR which in turn varies by class and race, and the second and subsequent -1 speed penalties are not the same as the first either in weight or value. But you are right that an additive power rating has difficulty with nonlinear approximations.
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E.g. I tossed leather scale of resist acid [useless wormtongue drop] even though it was my only source of rAcid, to wear a robe[2, +6] in my current game. It just wasn't worth the weight.
Leather scale is not heavy, as body armours go, even in the early game. That must have been a weak or heavily burdened character.

Please rest assured that I do think weight is important, and I will return to it (both for weapons and armours). It's just not currently factored into the power rating (apart from a tiny +1 power for items which weigh less than their standard weight). It is on my lists of things to work on next (tickets #798 for the long-term and #853 for the shorter term).
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If you believe in power pricing, it is not a "problem" to price heavy armors cheaper.
No, but change can fail simply because it is too different to what went before. Power-based pricing has already shaken some long-held tenets about prices of certain things (ESP, speed), so I decided that heavy armours had been reduced enough without at the moment reducing them still further because of their weight.
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If an iron helm [5,+0] costs more than a leather cap [2, +0] you've still got it wrong IMO. I always toss the former to keep the latter once my pack fills to the point I need to make a choice. 3 points of AC isn't worth worrying about being speed (-1) even occasionally.
Well, I haven't created this problem - iron helms have *always* cost more than leather caps. But your views on the importance of weight are duly noted - I'm curiously reassured that there isn't anything more significant to worry about (that's not an invitation to rant - I'm well aware of outstanding issues like plite and Narya vs Thorin).
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The reason to wear the cap [other than as a placeholder for additional magical AC enchantment] is not for the 2, but in case of saving some damage from an acid breath. Does your power algorithm take that into consideration? I.e. that any good or avg armor regardless of AC has a chance to reduce acid damage. First approximation is (value of rAcid) * (1/6) * (1/3) / (1/2) but that is wrong because multiple rAcid do not help but multiple armors do. I'd say every armor [without AC minuses] should start with value rAcid/3 or maybe even rAcid/2. You could think of some of that as the value of a placeholder for recipient of future ?enchant as well [an additional fixed significant value]. That might avoid some negative prices when armor weight is taken into account.
Yes, it might. It's also a lot more code for a tiny refinement of the algorithm - I'm not unwilling, it just isn't top priority. The value of rAcid already reflects the fact that armour items reduce acid damage. The 1.5 mult for base AC also partially reflects that (though I'm now convinced that base AC needs a nonlinear lookup table like speed - I'll do that next time I work on obj-power.c). But yes, since we now have a base power rating for jewelry, there's absolutely no harm in having one for armour items. Nice idea - thank you.
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Old June 3, 2009, 01:26   #13
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
30lbs = -1 speed is not obvious at all, as the amount of weight that gives -1 speed varies by STR which in turn varies by class and race.
Once you get to 18/50 str and 180+ lbs of inventory it is accurate, and I daresay even most mages manage that before 2500'. Randart generation should certainly be in the context that includes more than half of the dungeon. Earlier on, weight should perhaps cost more, but that is mitigated a bit by a certain amount of weight for free. Since I think you are arguing that this is too big a penalty, your position seems confused to me. I can imagine no reasonable alternative to 30 lb = -1 speed. That should apply to weapons as well, of course.
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Old June 3, 2009, 01:29   #14
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Yes, it might. It's also a lot more code for a tiny refinement of the algorithm
I don't understand this at all. Either define a constant or set a value of 1/2 rAcid after you do the other prep work. Then add to the power of all armor. That's only 2 lines of code.
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:12   #15
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Where is this "randart.log"?
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Old June 3, 2009, 08:46   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Once you get to 18/50 str and 180+ lbs of inventory it is accurate, and I daresay even most mages manage that before 2500'. Randart generation should certainly be in the context that includes more than half of the dungeon. Earlier on, weight should perhaps cost more, but that is mitigated a bit by a certain amount of weight for free. Since I think you are arguing that this is too big a penalty, your position seems confused to me. I can imagine no reasonable alternative to 30 lb = -1 speed. That should apply to weapons as well, of course.
Hmmmkay - though in the second half of the dungeon you often have some sort of permanent speed item (e.g. AoTrickery if not boots or randart or OoD ring) - and -1 speed is *much* less of a penalty if you are at (say) +3 speed than if you are at +0.

That said, I'm perfectly happy to use a rule of thumb that 30lbs of weight is equivalent to -6 power (since +1 speed is +6 power). That would mean we ought to subtract 1 power point for every 5lbs, which would start to affect things like iron helms (-1.5) and heavy boots. That's if we think weight is linear, of course. I'll start there and see how that affects things.
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Old June 3, 2009, 08:49   #17
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Originally Posted by Zikke View Post
Where is this "randart.log"?
On a *nix system, it's in ~/.angband/Angband. I don't play on Windows or Mac so I don't know where it would be.
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Old June 3, 2009, 08:52   #18
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
I don't understand this at all. Either define a constant or set a value of 1/2 rAcid after you do the other prep work. Then add to the power of all armor. That's only 2 lines of code.
Sure it is - but then I have to balance out any kinks it introduces. For example, it's going to make a cloak [1, +0] an order of magnitude more expensive. Is that right? Do I need to change anything else to avoid that? And so on. I was wrong to say it's a lot of code - but it is a non-trivial amount of work. Which I shall enjoy, of course.
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Old June 3, 2009, 09:43   #19
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Sure it is - but then I have to balance out any kinks it introduces. For example, it's going to make a cloak [1, +0] an order of magnitude more expensive. Is that right? Do I need to change anything else to avoid that? And so on. I was wrong to say it's a lot of code - but it is a non-trivial amount of work. Which I shall enjoy, of course.
Maybe a plain cloak should sell for 100 AU. Who is to say it should not? It is cheap because it should be easy to make, not because it is useless.

I don't believe in power-based pricing. I think that is separate from not believing in selling, but as a zealot I can't be sure of my motivations. But if you do believe in it, I don't think you should be bothered if an average cloak sells for more than average full plate armor. I, for one, am more likely to use the cloak. In fact, I use a plain cloak practically every game. I don't know if I have ever used non-ego full plate armor longer than to take it home to sell it.

Perhaps the solution is to have separate fixed pricing for items guaranteed to be for sale at the general store, and it should sell the historically cheapest item for each slot at a "reasonable" price. I.e. dagger, sling, cloak, leather whatever else.
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Old June 3, 2009, 11:39   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Maybe a plain cloak should sell for 100 AU. Who is to say it should not? It is cheap because it should be easy to make, not because it is useless.

I don't believe in power-based pricing. I think that is separate from not believing in selling, but as a zealot I can't be sure of my motivations. But if you do believe in it, I don't think you should be bothered if an average cloak sells for more than average full plate armor. I, for one, am more likely to use the cloak. In fact, I use a plain cloak practically every game. I don't know if I have ever used non-ego full plate armor longer than to take it home to sell it.

Perhaps the solution is to have separate fixed pricing for items guaranteed to be for sale at the general store, and it should sell the historically cheapest item for each slot at a "reasonable" price. I.e. dagger, sling, cloak, leather whatever else.
IMO the solution is to ensure that the utility of items in the game is proportionate to what they "should" cost. For heavy armour this is a simple matter of ramping up the base AC. If full plate had base AC of 60 instead of 26 it would be a serious proposition, as it would offer serious protection from physical blows, even in the absence of any resists etc. Extending that idea would make mithril plate AC 70 and adamant plate AC80 or so, and then they really would be worth 30k ...

But yes, I too have no real problem with cloaks costing more, just as slings now cost an awful lot more than they used to.
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