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Old May 17, 2010, 20:37   #21
Derakon
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Do you seriously expect to find the One Ring and Bladeturner in every winning game? Sure, they're the ultimate gear for their respective slots, but they're also so rare that I don't really worry about them. Heck, as noted, Bladeturner doesn't actually add all that much over its base item, so just finding PDSM at all will tend to edge out other body armor slots.

Still, I don't think adding more standarts to a randart game is all that great an idea. Especially not Bladeturner, which has no Tolkein significance. I can see the argument for the One Ring -- but then, why do we randomize the elven rings? Or Evenstar, or the Arkenstone...
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Old May 17, 2010, 20:54   #22
Jungle_Boy
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Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.
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Old May 17, 2010, 21:18   #23
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.
You read my mind. Not only have I thought of counting and/or limiting mods, but thematic artifacts have been on my agenda for a long time. Any year now.
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Old May 17, 2010, 21:57   #24
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I was wondering how to deal with the difference in power for slot (a) vs slots (c) through (l). (1) If you use your weapons for damage, you have to assume swaps, so resists are less valuable. (2) For things like pure damage, +25 in a side slot is worth oodles more than a +15 zweihander. I'd say five times as much as an absolute minimum, maybe 10 times, and I could see it going higher.

Damage bonuses on side slots apply to *all* weapons, but a damage bonus on a weapon only applies to itself. OTOH, you could say that that damage of a weapon applies to all all body armors, so I am not sure the previous sentence makes any sense.

A DEX bonus in a side slot such as Vilya is important because it helps provide the ability to get max swings with Deathwreaker. The DEX bonus on a *slay orc* weapon is worthless to most chars.

Maybe I am just confusing myself it and all comes down to rarity issues, but I think some of the issues I see in prices when I sell stuff might be related to this sort of thing.
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Old May 17, 2010, 23:16   #25
Djabanete
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Re: Dragon armor (non-artifact high-resist-covering armor)

Hengband has Dragon Shields, Dragon Gloves, Dragon Boots, and Dragon Helms, all of which grant random resistances. Sometimes they give only one, often two, and sometimes three or more. They're very useful from a game design perspective, because while they can patch up a resist or two, that's about all they do (that is, they're often useful but not super powerful). I don't think they'd be out of place in Vanilla.

Also, the random resistances lottery makes for fun, suspenseful moments as you hack your way through to a bit of dragon gear in eager anticipation of finding out what its powers will be. VERY (!) rarely, a dragon item will be as valuable as a high-end artifact, so even a well-powered character can have the thrill of anticipation as he identifies one of them.
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Old May 17, 2010, 23:54   #26
Estie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.
Capping is boring. Rather, divide the pool of mods into offensive and defensive ones, and give rings and gloves a decent chance to pick from the offensive pool, everything else only a tiny chance. This makes sure that the typical set has *some* (+x,+y), slay or brand or whatever - this was missing in the old randart code - but you will rarely see it on anything else, and while "only the RNG prevents every piece from having +attack speed", the chance for that are so slim it wont matter.
In the same sense, I wouldnt like everything that has ImmFire to also have SustainCha. (*yawn*)
The power pool makes sure that not all 4 immunities spawn on Nimthanc, but for the high end items, a very lucky roll should be able to yield that. If you look at Ringil, I am sure anyone who isnt familiar with the standard set would want to tone it down. But its rare enough to not matter for balancing purposes. I want Ringils to exist, just not always a 4d5 longsword!
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Old May 18, 2010, 00:51   #27
miyazaki
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I think limiting +shooting speed and +attack speed to pvals of 1 would almost end this debate. Would it be possible to decouple these two mods from the pval on the weapon? Have it always on or off, with a value of 1 if it is on? (I know nothing of programming.) I guess it would force some rebalancing of the standarts, tho'...
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Old May 18, 2010, 05:34   #28
Estie
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The problem I see with extra attacks on non-weapons is that it distorts the balance between classes. A warrior gets a 50% melee damage bonus in exchange for not having spells compared to a mage. If you have +5 attacks from equipment, this is reduced to ~ +20% while the benefit of spells remains the same. Slays and brands dont have this problem, as their damage increase is proportional to the number of (base) attacks.

I think miyazaki´s suggestion is good; how about this:

1. Leave weapons unchanged.
2. Define new properties, off-weapon_blow and off-weapon_shot. Only non-weapon artifacts can get these. They are independant of any Pval an item might have, like fire resistance.
3. The effect of having the property on a piece is to increase the number of blows by 1 (2 if class = warrior), or number of shots by 1 (2 if class = ranger). They do not stack, so having it on 2 pieces doesnt add another blow; just like fire resistance.
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Old May 18, 2010, 07:00   #29
Pete Mack
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That works of course, but I dont like it. After all, the point of randomizing (for me) is to not know in advance what to expect; with The One and Bladeturner fixed, that makes 2 of the 4 big slots (weapon, bodyarmour, rings) where I know the end. Id much rather have a broken toon ala Aberly now and then than that.
This just is not true. When is the last time you found either Bladeturner or The One Ring? So how exactly does not randomizing these items affect gameplay in any way?
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Old May 18, 2010, 07:36   #30
Zikke
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This just is not true. When is the last time you found either Bladeturner or The One Ring? So how exactly does not randomizing these items affect gameplay in any way?
In all my years of playing Angband, I have never once found either Bladeturner or the One Ring.

I have found Bladeturner-based randarts twice however, because the new base item is much more common than PDSM.
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