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Old June 19, 2010, 18:42   #11
Atarlost
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Example:
Say seeker arrows are reduced to 1d6 and bolts to 1d8. I think the max shots a non-ranger can expect to find is 3. Max brand seen on an arrow is 3x so 9x normal damage.

Max might seen outside crazy randarts is currently 6x I think which under my proposal would drop to 3.5x. Max enchantable damage is +10. Call the launcher another +10.
That would do (4.5*3.5+20)*9 reasonable max average of 321. That's less than magic, but without mana costs.

IIRC rangers get 2 more shots with bows. That would be 483 reasonable max average. A little high, but the problem is then restricted to one class and they'll burn through ammo. Remove the branding spell and you're probably okay.

Early archery would be weak, but it's currently so overpowered it might take that much nerfing to get into balance because there aren't many ranged opponents in the first few levels.

Remove seeker projectiles entirely and archery gets low enough you can think about handing out extra shots based on DEX. Maybe max 2 for mages and priests, 3 for warriors and rogues, and 4 for rangers in place of the level based extra shots they have now.
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Old June 19, 2010, 19:19   #12
Timo Pietilä
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ycombinator View Post
And how we are supposed to do ranged damage in the early game, before all this unbalancing stuff shows up? 20 missiles is not enough for a single trip to the dungeon, and ammo drops are not nearly as often.
Yes it is. Just use melee when you run out of ammo, or conserve your ammo and don't use ranged attacks against everything. Ranger is only class that has this imaginary problem of "not enough ammo" because ranger tend to use archery too much (too tempting). Ranger does have fairly good melee, I think it is second best right after warrior (very similar to paladin), which means that ranger could use melee like everybody else does instead.

This unlimited supply of ammunition with added help from quiver to hold anything you find in dungeon has taught people wrong habits. This situation didn't even exist before *very* recent change in general store and everyone were complaining even before that how overpowered rangers were. Now that you have quiver to hold several different stacks of ammo without sacrificing inventory space and unlimited ammo from general store and branding of ammunition from spells rangers have come ridiculously overpowered.

We only need to restore old situation and entire problem goes almost completely away.

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I disagree. Make ego missiles rarer, make stacks smaller, change slay modifiers to additive, but don't remove them altogether. Actually, I think additive modifiers are more than enough.
Making stacks smaller doesn't affect a bit as long as you can buy 99 ammo from general store and if that is not enough buy it empty and buy another stack of 99. That's cheap because general store doesn't sell anything expensive.

Ego missiles are already rare. No need to make ego more rare, just make brands that affect pretty much anything disappear.

I just killed Sauron with Lothlorien "not even close to Bard" -effective longbow with single stack of acid arrows without even using them all. That was very one-sided battle. It didn't feel right. Not with that gear. I don't think characters are supposed to be able to kill second in rank enemy with only one stack of arrows using bow that isn't extraordinarily powerful.
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Old June 19, 2010, 19:52   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
Yes it is. Just use melee when you run out of ammo, or conserve your ammo and don't use ranged attacks against everything. Ranger is only class that has this imaginary problem of "not enough ammo" because ranger tend to use archery too much (too tempting). Ranger does have fairly good melee, I think it is second best right after warrior (very similar to paladin), which means that ranger could use melee like everybody else does instead.
Limiting missiles in the stores won't drive people to use melee more, it will cause them to rest on dlvl 1, store scum and call for a buy-out button.

A better solution is to remove enchanted/ego arrows from stores and provide an unlimited supply of (+0, +0) missiles.

I think removing the to-hit and to-damage values completely from missiles would be a good idea as well. Leave the brands/slays intact.
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Old June 19, 2010, 19:54   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
Yes it is. Just use melee when you run out of ammo, or conserve your ammo and don't use ranged attacks against everything. Ranger is only class that has this imaginary problem of "not enough ammo" because ranger tend to use archery too much (too tempting).
I was talking about mages. They're too weak for melee and can't rely on attack spells for extended periods of time because either damage is insufficient or mana cost is prohibitively high.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
Making stacks smaller doesn't affect a bit as long as you can buy 99 ammo from general store and if that is not enough buy it empty and buy another stack of 99. That's cheap because general store doesn't sell anything expensive.
I mean, make stacks of ego ammo found in the dungeon smaller. E.g. if you find 10 arrows of acid, you can only soften one big enemy, and you're not going to find another stack of acid ammo for a looong time.
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Making stacks smaller doesn't affect a bit as long as you can buy 99 ammo from general store and if that is not enough buy it empty and buy another stack of 99. That's cheap because general store doesn't sell anything expensive.
I have another solution: add IM_ACID to Sauron :-)
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Old June 19, 2010, 19:59   #15
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Sauron's not the only monster with acid vulnerability. Acid brands are by far the best elemental brands to use in the late game, since acid resistance is far more uncommon than the other types. I don't really have a problem with this since it seems that acid-branded ammo is comparatively rare (vs. flame/frost), though that could just be what the RNG has chosen to hand to me. It does mean that Rings of Acid are much more useful than the other elemental branding rings.
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Old June 19, 2010, 20:13   #16
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Originally Posted by Ycombinator View Post
I was talking about mages. They're too weak for melee and can't rely on attack spells for extended periods of time because either damage is insufficient or mana cost is prohibitively high.
You have mm. Use it instead. It is surprisingly effective. No need to use archery at all. There are winners that have played magic only mages. Dive slower. Mage is supposed to be slow starter. Slowest of all classes.

Lack of ammo was never a problem for them before, why would it be now? They are even chancing mage spells less mana-expensive so that you can rely those beams and ball-spells even more than before.
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Old June 19, 2010, 20:21   #17
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Sauron's not the only monster with acid vulnerability.
Yes, but Sauron is supposed to be by far the most powerful monster in the game except Morgoth. This resistance hole is possibly the only reason why Sauron is such a pushover compared to Morgoth.
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Old June 19, 2010, 20:27   #18
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Sauron's not the only monster with acid vulnerability. Acid brands are by far the best elemental brands to use in the late game, since acid resistance is far more uncommon than the other types. I don't really have a problem with this since it seems that acid-branded ammo is comparatively rare (vs. flame/frost), though that could just be what the RNG has chosen to hand to me. It does mean that Rings of Acid are much more useful than the other elemental branding rings.
I think reason to monsters lacking of resistance to acid is because acid brand is also new invention and its consequences were not examined thoroughly. In a bit older vanilla only mage could attack monsters using acid with acid ball and acid bolt spells. Those holes in monsters resistances are probably entirely deliberate, so that mage could exploit it during attacks (not that acid bolt of ball were ever very effective).

Now however that element is available to everybody, and few of the artifacts that used to have other brands have now acid (like Aule, which used to have elec brand).

We could of course halve acid brand effect just for fairness sake. After all, all acid damages that monsters do to us are also halved by armor.
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Old June 19, 2010, 21:03   #19
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post

We could of course halve acid brand effect just for fairness sake. After all, all acid damages that monsters do to us are also halved by armor.
With my nerfed archery Sauron was still easy with using Slay evil ammo. That's a x2 brand just like you're proposing acid be. Sauron just isn't that strong, he wastes a lot of turns casting things like fire balls and trying to slow you. Also, DJA allows for a x2 acid branding for the archer class. I used that to take down Sauron with ease (I had extra shots)

The fight against Morgoth seemed easier than most M fights, but that's mostly because he summoned a lot less than usual. I think 350-450 damage per turn with archery makes for a suitably challenging Morgoth fight.
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Old June 19, 2010, 21:03   #20
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I think removing the to-hit and to-damage values completely from missiles would be a good idea as well. Leave the brands/slays intact.
You are probably right, but I keep wondering if archery brands and slays should only appear on the launchers which I alternate between thinking is brilliant and stupid.
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