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Old May 23, 2012, 19:41   #41
LostTemplar
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I have RP's Angband almost since the beginning.
You do RP angband but you do not enjoy it, at least it seems from your posts, that you do not. I am just saying, that it is not a bug, angband is deliberately made in such a way, that RP is not very much fun, unless your RP style is to kill every monster on level, and maybe kill every unique in the game. In your words angband forces you to grind, it is the game of grinding.
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Old May 23, 2012, 21:27   #42
fizzix
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Originally Posted by CliffStamp View Post
The algorithm can be cl/dl based or even equipment based, unique killed based.
I really dislike mechanics where the game is easier if you are weaker. Basically, I object to any situation where there is a disadvantage to becoming stronger.

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Yes, this is true - ID by use has come a long way and is viable, but endgame ID is still sometimes frustrating/tedious. One day someone will submit a pull request to add NPP's mass ID effect.
I'll do this after 3.4 is out the door. I'll replace alter reality(?) and detect enchantment with a mass ID, and make the rods of identify be mass identify. It will fully identify all objects in LoS. It will be called *identify* just to confuse old-school players.

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It happened quite recently, and led to renewed calls to get rid of the Curse Weapon/Armour scrolls. I think they might be gone from 3.4, I'm not sure.
Sadly they're still there. I'm completely ok with removing them though.
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Old May 23, 2012, 21:38   #43
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I'll do this after 3.4 is out the door. I'll replace alter reality(?) and detect enchantment with a mass ID, and make the rods of identify be mass identify. It will fully identify all objects in LoS. It will be called *identify* just to confuse old-school players.
Careful with that "everything in LOS" rule -- it could possibly result in lost artifacts in the edge case. If we want to completely trivialize ID then we could as easily just make it ID everything in a radius-4 circle and have no recharge time to speak of (in the case of the rod).

Otherwise, sounds good.
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Old May 23, 2012, 22:15   #44
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Oh! here's a problem. You're playing with connected stairs.
I was playing without connected stairs before it was an option. I simply never went back up when I went down. The only time I have ever done this was in Heng playing a pure Beserker (non Wraith/Amberite) as stairs are your only escape. Even then though I would only use stairs to escape before engaging, once a fight started then it had to be finished. I did think it was a bit unBeserker like to run at all and made a few attempts to run refusing to use stairs (and again no Wraith/Amberite) but always lucked out with the Destroyer/Unicorn spazzing disintegrate+ubersummon. Even if you can drain, eventually you will be dragon locked as the level will just fill up. Plus you can luck out and hit one of the wide open levels which does not even need disintegrate to cause a problem.
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Old May 23, 2012, 22:54   #45
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But if I've understood Cliff correctly, his main issue is a dislike of this very argument. He wants a mechanism whereby fast players don't have to scum/grind/beetlejuice for healing (or damage, or monster control) items - hence the store suggestions.
If endgame consumables are really the problem, the FA store ordering mechanic deals with that pretty well - once you have found one of an item, you can order it and it will be added to the stock list.
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Old May 24, 2012, 00:19   #46
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v4 is using a "rune-based" approach to ID, where each item ability like rFire or Slay Evil corresponds to a rune, and it's the runes you identify, not the item. Thus eventually you'll learn all the runes and automatically know how every item you find works. It's still a work in progress though -- and it doesn't affect how consumable items are identified.
That is very nice both in sensibility/logic as well as game play, how are you working that with squelch, could you squelch anything not +2 attacks for example?
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Old May 24, 2012, 00:22   #47
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Originally Posted by LostTemplar View Post
You do RP angband but you do not enjoy it...
There are aspects I could see improvement, and many aspects I never enjoyed. I never enjoyed manual haggling for example, no more in RL than in the game. But this doesn't keep me from playing it, I doubt there is anyone who thinks the same is perfect and could not be changed in any way for the better.
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Old May 24, 2012, 00:34   #48
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I really dislike mechanics where the game is easier if you are weaker. Basically, I object to any situation where there is a disadvantage to becoming stronger.
Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.

If for example you altered the item generation so that the chance of a ros dropping was linked to your char speed / dl then it would smooth out item drops and both prevent stalling as well as extreme early luck leading to an over powered character and challenged removed.
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Old May 24, 2012, 01:28   #49
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Originally Posted by CliffStamp View Post
Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.

If for example you altered the item generation so that the chance of a ros dropping was linked to your char speed / dl then it would smooth out item drops and both prevent stalling as well as extreme early luck leading to an over powered character and challenged removed.
As a general rule, I'm opposed to things external to the player changing because the player has changed. Amount of experience rewarded is an internal attribute -- it makes some sense that you get diminishing returns on experience as you become more experienced. You're less likely to have seen something novel while slaughtering your 500th orc than when you slowly whittled your first one to death. Similarly, a young character has a lot more to learn about the anatomy of, say, bile demons than an older one does.

What the stores stock, though, is an external attribute -- the stores don't inherently have anything to do with the player. Now, it's not impossible to create links, like variants that allow the player to place specific orders, but those links absolutely have to be explicit -- the store should not simply start magically stocking better stuff just because the player is stronger. That's on a similar level with the games where monsters level up as the player does; it's just lazy design.

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That is very nice both in sensibility/logic as well as game play, how are you working that with squelch, could you squelch anything not +2 attacks for example?
This is a big part of why it's still a work in progress; we haven't yet figured out a good UI for squelch. Individual runes can be squelched, but you have to do it manually through the knowledge screens (i.e. you can't do it from the menu that pops up when you squelch a specific item), and there's no way to do pval-based squelching.
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Old May 24, 2012, 02:09   #50
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Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.
This is sort of true. I'd favor changing it to a graduated system so that you if you kill something that's worth 10 XP at clevel 1 and you only need 2 XP to advance, you get 2 XP at the clevel 1 rate and the rest at the clevel 2 rate. However, this tends to be such a minor issue it's almost definitely not worth the coding hassle. (There is the guy that stair-scummed to kill an Erinyes to go from clevel 1 to 32 in one go, but besides that...)
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