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Old April 18, 2012, 22:00   #1
NoSurrender
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[3.05] Thunderfist or Durin?

So after a long break, I've resumed playing Angband a bit. My dear Scrabble is still alive and kicking despite my odd play habits (as detailed here: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5415).

In my latest level at depth 77 (which was a "Looks like any other level" from not spending enough time in the town), I encountered Tselakus while tidying up my treasure. Tselakus summoned greater undead right off the bat which brought 3 Nightcrawlers, a Black Reaver, and the Witch-King. Needless to say it took a bit of doing... but in the end, the bad guys all kicked the bucket or whatever undead dudes do when they cease to exist. Witch-king didn't drop anything of merit... But Tselakus dropped Durin.

So now the Durin or Thunderfist debate... Character dump here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11793

I'm still using my spreadsheet and utility function to determine the best fit of equipment. Basically, my spreadsheet favored Thunderfist ever so slightly. I'm sure if I monkeyed with the weighting of the utility components slightly, I could tip the balance in favor of Durin. So it seems to me to be six of one or half-a-dozen of the other, but I'm curious about the thoughts of the more experienced players.

Thunderfist according to the spreadsheet does a little more damage, while Durin gives better protection. However, the spreadsheet assumes that the probabilities that a monster is resistant to Lightning and that a monster is resistant to Fire (or Fire and Acid in the case of Durin) are independent. This is not the case as a lot of the scariest monsters are resistant to all elemental attacks... OTOH, the lack of accuracy is probably somewhat bolstered by the fact that Durin and Thunderfist share this feature...

I ran my the spreadsheet w/o Paurhach, which I am using as a swap with Fingolfin. If I'm in serious combat, I wear Fingolfin. If I'm exploring, healing, or identifying, I'm using Paurhach for the regeneration.
Code:
Total Util 	Melee Util 	Ranged Util	Resist Util	Speed	Armor Util	HP	Save	SP	Stl	Infr	Melee Weap.	Ranged Weap.	Ring #1  	Ring #2  	Amulet     	Light Src.	Armor   	Cloak     	Shield       	Headgear	Gloves   	Boots
-----------	-----------	-----------	-----------	-----	-----------	---	--- 	---	---	--- 	-----------	------------	---------	---------	-----------	----------	--------	----------	-------------	--------	---------	-------------
98.83431781	1730.454487	2643.438224	0.694067184	4.1	0.62757732	975	120	227	11	5	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Elessar    	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
98.46085932	1537.521223	2639.395132	0.699285735	4.1	0.662371134	975	120	227	11	5	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Elessar    	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
98.35701983	1537.521223	2639.395132	0.695458798	4.1	0.63685567	975	120	223	13	5	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Elessar    	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
98.11218058	1557.670683	2606.322956	0.690588151	4.1	0.604381443	975	120	227	15	9	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
98.10136998	1595.946806	2614.716659	0.685021697	4.1	0.567268041	975	120	245	15	9	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Rohirrim	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.90338247	1557.670683	2606.322956	0.686761214	4.1	0.578865979	975	120	223	17	9	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.87734247	1595.946806	2614.716659	0.68119476	4.1	0.541752577	975	120	241	17	9	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.71143773	1406.212875	2610.530663	0.690240247	4.1	0.602061856	975	120	245	15	9	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Rohirrim	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.67851216	1368.864886	2602.093193	0.695806701	4.1	0.639175258	975	120	227	15	9	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.67156092	1688.24828	2578.964121	0.690240247	4	0.602061856	975	120	223	13	5	Thunderfist	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Elessar    	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.64238098	1130.514828	2550.943082	0.910579036	4	0.553350515	975	120	223	11	8	Anduril    	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Necklace	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Colluin   	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.50743139	1406.212875	2610.530663	0.686413311	4.1	0.576546392	975	120	241	17	9	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.48756028	1368.864886	2602.093193	0.691979764	4.1	0.613659794	975	120	223	17	9	Durin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Trickery +4	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.37384489	1589.162323	2243.59318	0.910579036	4	0.553350515	975	120	223	12	8	Thunderfist	Belthronding	Speed +15	Speed +11	Necklace	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Colluin   	Elfkind Shard	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
97.30173216	1397.629218	2635.332551	0.694067184	4.1	0.62757732	975	120	227	11	5	Hurin      	HXbow XS	Speed +15	Speed +11	Elessar    	Arkenstone	Isildur 	Aman Shard	Gil-Galad    	Dorlomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion

Last edited by NoSurrender; April 18, 2012 at 22:02. Reason: two however sentences in a row, how clumsy
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Old April 18, 2012, 22:11   #2
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3.0.5 is awhile ago, but I suspect that the acid brand on Durin will be more reliable than the lightning brand on Thunderfist. More relevantly, though, Durin gives you slays against demons and dragons, who are both big targets in the late game (and demons often resist elements); Thunderfist's species slays in contrast are basically irrelevant.

You lose 1 point each of STR and CON by using Durin, but with CON at least you don't lose any HP so who cares?

Personally I'd go with Durin.
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Old April 18, 2012, 22:49   #3
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Amongst demons, there are definitely some that resist Lightning and Fire (like Greater Balrog. Horned Reaper, a certifiable pain in the rear, is resistant to all the elements.

So Slay Demon is really good and XDragon is really good too. I hadn't considered that angle. Thanks.

One thing is that there is a weight difference between the weapons: Durin = 23 lbs Thunderfist = 30 lbs. According to the spreadsheet:

Code:
Probability	Thunderfist	Durin
-------------------------------------
dmg dice	4d6         	4d4
p(Hit)   	0.809      	0.808
p(Crit)  	0.198      	0.183
-------------------------------------
p(Good)  	0.152      	0.260
p(Great) 	0.462      	0.462
p(Suberb)	0.308      	0.279
p(*GR8T*)	0.078      	0.000
There's a compounding effect too when you consider the damage dice and the probabilities. It makes weighing the decision a little trickier. But I think you might be right that Durin is the way to go...
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Old April 19, 2012, 01:44   #4
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More anecdotal and self-indulgent than helpful - for my first winner (a HE mage, 3.0.3) I had this choice, and chose Durin. Can't remember the details of why, but ISTR it ended up being a fairly clear choice.
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Old April 19, 2012, 02:09   #5
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Also if you really want to consider everything, realize that those 7 pounds might mean a speed point.

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Old April 19, 2012, 03:56   #6
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When I have a choice like this, I just pick whatever sounds more badass.
Thunderfist.
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Old April 19, 2012, 07:32   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Also if you really want to consider everything, realize that those 7 pounds might mean a speed point.

</unhelpful>
My spreadsheet accounts for that! I have to provide my inventory weight as an input. It then adds up the weight for that particular combination of equipment and does the slow-down calculation.
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Old April 19, 2012, 08:58   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HallucinationMushroom View Post
When I have a choice like this, I just pick whatever sounds more badass.
Thunderfist.
Same here, if choice is so close that I can't figure which I want to use I use the one I find "cooler".

Also raw damage rarely tells which is better, you need to account what depth you are and what is the next big opponent you are planning to kill. If it is angels, then Pain trumps pretty much anything, if it is Ancalagon then Durins kill dragon trumps Thunderfist brands and slays and both trump Pain etc.

You are at dragon pit area so I would go with Durin.
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