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Old January 14, 2013, 06:57   #1
NoSurrender
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YAWP - Vanilla 3.05 - Hobbit Rogue

Character Dump on the ladder is here.

After cruising around 4950 feet for a long time, I finally decided to take on the big guy.

As I've described in previous posts, I use a pretty sophisticated spreadsheet to figure out my kit. I probably value high-resists in my kit more than most other players. My kit was pretty ordinary for the end of the game--I did find all 3 elven rings, though I only used Narya. The only sustain that I lacked was Intelligence, which I figured wasn't a huge deal. I went down with about 20 Potions of *Healing* and 18 Potions of Life in addition to 4 Rods of Healing.

I was a bit delayed in finding an attractive space to fight Morgoth--I ran into a Beholder Hive Mother just after descending to 5000 feet. I thought it best to turn her into a pin cushion before the big fight.

I went with a mini-"sea of runes" using 4 Rune scrolls (I had a fifth but ran out of time to set it up). I went through this whole game without ever using Banishment or Mass Banishment. I decided to take a scroll of Mass Banishment down with me just in case Morgoth summoned multiple Great Wyrms of Balance, Chaos, and/or Law. I was also a touch worried about Pit Fiends, Dracoliches, and Black Reavers.

I started off using my Heavy Crossbow with about 30 Seeker Bolts of Slay Evil. I got about 15 of these off before Morgoth broke through the runes. Then I used up about 20 regular Bolts of Slay Evil. After that, I went to melee.

In the end I got pretty lucky--the worst things Morgie summoned were a Death Drake, a Great Swamp Wyrm, a Lesser Balrog, and an Osyluth. The Balrog wasn't able to do much except drain the charges from Staffs of Teleportation (I was wearing Narya). The Osyluth definitely got some hits in, but I had the sustains to keep him from getting ridiculous. I kept my Resistance spell going so the Wyrm didn't do much. The Death Drake was annoying enough as a few times he breathed nether knocking me below 750 hp forcing me to heal.

But Morgoth himself was the most frustrating. There were times where I felt like all I was doing was quaffing potions to stay alive. But alas I still had a fair of my healing left after the fight.

It feels good to finally win this game the Angband way (no save/restore). Life is crazy right now with small children and a dissertation I'm trying to finish, so I only get to play here and there and often go months between plays. Way way back (1996 and 2003), I won after pulling save file cheats after getting creamed (Azriel in 1996 and a pair of Dracoliches in 2003). So HOORAY!

Thinking I will play an Elven Ranger next. I'm planning on sticking with 3.05 as I'm familiar with it and I have a lot of spreadsheet work invested in it. I'm also a touch worried about balance issues in later versions. DSM's that give speed bonuses just doesn't feel right to me.
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Old January 14, 2013, 07:28   #2
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSurrender View Post
DSM's that give speed bonuses just doesn't feel right to me.
DSM of Speed is functionally un-generable at the moment; only 1 out of 45 ego DSMs will be of Speed, and then you only get a d5 bonus. The odds of getting useful DSM of Speed are functionally nil; any effect they would have on balance is significantly countered by the nerfs to, say, Amulets of Trickery.

That said, if you're happy with the balance in 3.0.5 then you have no incentive to change versions.

That's some impressive kit you have there. 18 Potions of Life is huge, as is the massive stacks of ammo in your inventory. However, your melee damage output was a bit low (averaging around 350/round if all hits land, I'd guess; 3.0.5 doesn't have the damage calculator that later versions have). Certainly enough for the endgame, but I think in your shoes I would have stuck to missile combat instead of switching to melee to finish Morgoth off. Remember to stay out of melee range with him if you're using ranged combat -- any turn when he would normally hit you in melee will instead be spent moving closer to you, so you greatly reduce the damage you take by staying out of melee range. Especially, if you're going to drink healing potions, you should ideally be out of melee range.

Congrats on your win!
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Old January 14, 2013, 09:32   #3
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
However, your melee damage output was a bit low (averaging around 350/round if all hits land
From the equipment he had I think I would have used Rohirrim/Colannon/SoS Extra attacks +2

Maybe also Vilya instead of Narya (more damage&speed + rDisenchantment) and Elessar instead of Trickery (more damage).

If I calculate that correctly he would have -9 to melee +2 to blows meaning (8d4 + 47) * 7 = 469. Pain would be +10 to melee with five blows: (9d6 + 66) * 5 = 487.5, but with those additional changes (Elessar & Vilya) extra blows give more (just barely).

Anyway, Durin is not very good against Morgoth because it lacks slay evil.

Best melee-damage I have reached in old days before 3.x additions was with Doomcaller with warrior: over 800 points / turn. Something like Cubragol & BoS+10, hasted, maxed STR, two high-bonus RoDam (+20+) & Fingolfin. That's 98 bonus from equipment + 6d5 with slay evil = 804 with all blows hit. Maybe Deathwreaker could yield even bigger damage, but in 2.x series you couldn't get 6 blows with it with warrior. In fact I believe you couldn't get even five with it in old days.
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Old January 14, 2013, 15:03   #4
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Certainly enough for the endgame, but I think in your shoes I would have stuck to missile combat instead of switching to melee to finish Morgoth off. Remember to stay out of melee range with him if you're using ranged combat -- any turn when he would normally hit you in melee will instead be spent moving closer to you, so you greatly reduce the damage you take by staying out of melee range. Especially, if you're going to drink healing potions, you should ideally be out of melee range.
When Morgoth summoned the Balrog and the Osyluth, he also got a huge pile of Barbazu. I could have phased door to avoid his melee attacks. But I would likely not have had line of sight due to the 20 or so Barbazu milling around. I could have used my Scroll of Mass Banishment, but I was trying to get through the whole game without using it.

I figured I would have to take out 3-4 Barbazu before having LoS on Morgoth. Probably would take 2 Bolts of Frost for each Barbazu giving Morgoth a free 3-4 turns each time I phase door.

According to my spreadsheet (normalized to +0 speed):

1. Melee = 1102 dam per turn (262 dam per key stroke)
2. Ranged w/o Slay Evil = 1132 dam per turn (135 dam per shot)
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Old January 14, 2013, 15:12   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
From the equipment he had I think I would have used Rohirrim/Colannon/SoS Extra attacks +2

Maybe also Vilya instead of Narya (more damage&speed + rDisenchantment) and Elessar instead of Trickery (more damage).

If I calculate that correctly he would have -9 to melee +2 to blows meaning (8d4 + 47) * 7 = 469. Pain would be +10 to melee with five blows: (9d6 + 66) * 5 = 487.5, but with those additional changes (Elessar & Vilya) extra blows give more (just barely).
I plugged Timo's suggestion into the spreadsheet, and it does provide pretty good damage:

1. Melee = 1947 dam per turn (475 dam per keystroke)
2. Ranged w/o Slay Evil = 1129 dam per turn (138 dam per shot)

It didn't rank as highly in my spreadsheet because it would have no Resistance to Shards and Nether. Also my spreadsheet values Immunity to Fire more highly than Immunity to Elec.
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Old January 14, 2013, 15:59   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSurrender View Post
I plugged Timo's suggestion into the spreadsheet, and it does provide pretty good damage:

1. Melee = 1947 dam per turn (475 dam per keystroke)
2. Ranged w/o Slay Evil = 1129 dam per turn (138 dam per shot)

It didn't rank as highly in my spreadsheet because it would have no Resistance to Shards and Nether. Also my spreadsheet values Immunity to Fire more highly than Immunity to Elec.
At the very final fight resistances don't count much as long as you can manage summons using other methods. Morgoth does minuscule damage with nether compared to rest of the things he can do, and he regenerates and does big damage which means speed of the kill means a lot there. Doubling the damage actually cuts whole combat to less than half: his regen doesn't count that much, and he has less time summoning monsters that you need to deal with.

My gear at very end is usually radically different than rest of the game. Maximize damage output and speed, carry healing and methods to get rid of nasty summons quickly, ignore pretty much everything else (usually you get necessities covered even with those).

I agree with fire immunity though, I too count that higher than other two.
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Old January 14, 2013, 16:12   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSurrender View Post
When Morgoth summoned the Balrog and the Osyluth, he also got a huge pile of Barbazu. I could have phased door to avoid his melee attacks. But I would likely not have had line of sight due to the 20 or so Barbazu milling around. I could have used my Scroll of Mass Banishment, but I was trying to get through the whole game without using it.

I figured I would have to take out 3-4 Barbazu before having LoS on Morgoth. Probably would take 2 Bolts of Frost for each Barbazu giving Morgoth a free 3-4 turns each time I phase door.
Well, if you didn't want to use Mass Banishment, you could also have just used Teleport. No need to banish summons if they can't reach you. Personally I would've just banished them. Or teleported Morgoth away and destructed them.
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Old January 14, 2013, 17:57   #8
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What Timo says. I dont know wether this gametype can provide any challenge to players who have mastered the "dont take unneccessary risks" part, but chafing off bits here and there by reducing boni wherever possible isnt going to do it.
So Thorin gives only +3 to str now ? Aww. And Cammithrim +5 instead of +8 ? Oh well.

As much as I understand the intention behind those "nerfs", if I look at the big picture, it feels like devs are groping for straws. Angband has always had the option to adjust the difficulty, by picking easy or hard starting options, race/class combos, or even save scums. If someone wants to radically reduce his affix pool for items, there is the option to play without artifacts. Why reduce the quality of artifacts in the default game ?

The default game is, imo, about being interesting, not hard. The person who easily wins default can always pick some challenge option, like most old players have done.

In any case....reducing affix pool size isnt going to make the game better. Just more boring. Imh(umble)o.

Cheers.
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Old January 14, 2013, 23:05   #9
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I get that you don't like what the more recent versions of Angband have done with item drops, but I seriously don't see how this particular thread served as a trigger for your rant.
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Old January 15, 2013, 04:17   #10
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Thats because I posted in the wrong thread. Sorry for the rant
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