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Old October 3, 2010, 13:10   #81
fyonn
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Originally Posted by nullfame View Post
(I read it)
thanks

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Originally Posted by nullfame
Are we also assuming this level 50 warrior hasn't been consuming magical potions (constitution, augmentation, etc)? I can imagine those making him superhuman.
I guess when I said superhuman, I mean nigh on invulnerable. yes, these guys have magically high stats but their skin is not made of steel, nor their bones of titanium. they have massive endurance and stamina, but even the mightiest have been brought down by relatively weak attacks. the the witch-king of angmar really was super-human but got killed when he was stabbed in the leg by a hobbit (Merry) and then had a sword stuck into his helmet by a nurse-maid (Eowyn). bear in mind that Eowyn was not an experienced fighter, she just got lucky. in the game, Angmar has 6000HP, which is 4-6 times as many HP as any character is ever likely to get.

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Originally Posted by nullfame
But, if he has consumed no potions, isn't wearing any armour (no CON boost, resistances) then he probably has 500 HP. An AMHD would kill him in one shot. Even the strongest warrior (950 HP) can be killed in 2.
I see you've picked out an AMHD there, which are significantly more powerful than most other base dragons. What about your typical D&D dragon, an ancient red.

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It can claw to attack with damage 4d9, claw to attack with damage 4d9, and bite to burn with damage 7d9.
so excluding it's flambe attack, looking at maximum damage we're talking 36+36+63, so a maximum damage rate of 135 damage in a turn, an average of 67.5. our naked warrior here would probably last 7 rounds here, or worst case, nearly 4 rounds. surely an ancient dragon would bite his torso in half in one go and swallow. end of? he lasts longer because he fends off the claws and teeth with a weapon, a shield and fancy armour.

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Originally Posted by nullfame
Dodging attacks, IMO, is built in to damage. Yes, we expect a single blow to be devastating to said warrior. But he's not standing there saying "give me your best shot." He's running like hell, avoiding any damage he can, etc.
and I guess that's the thing for me. we're modelling this dodging and avoiding with high HP, where we could perhaps be modelling it in better use of things like AC, DEX, speed or magical defenses?

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Originally Posted by nullfame
With magical enhancements, all bets are off. With the right equipment a cl50 human warrior can kill Morgoth.
oh yes, I agree that magical kit, especially artifacts should and do make a considerable difference, but to me, they should enhance our ability to defend ourselves.

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Originally Posted by nullfame
Yes, back to the original topic. Oh wait, no
hey, if a topic doesn't wander then we're not doing it right

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Originally Posted by nullfame
Totally agree. Who do you think sets a better trap: Wormtongue or Harowen? I bet Feagwath sets a mean trap. I would hate to be caught in Shelob's web.
yes, completely. and feagwath doesn't seem the type to set traps with the though in his head of "well, I'll just injure them a bit".

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Originally Posted by nullfame
If you don't resist poison you should die (long duration). Otherwise it should leave you very ill (take meaningful damage from the dart).
should we (do we?) have levels of poisoning? like we have levels of cuts?

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Originally Posted by nullfame
DEX and INT currently reduce your harm from traps (by increasing the likelihood you disarm them to begin with).
somehow, I see it in my head as though disarming high level traps is unlikely for many, but what they may well do is spot them and understand how not to set them off?

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Originally Posted by nullfame
This already happens. You just don't notice because the trap was set off before you detected it. Some of the monsters also died before you detected them. Getting rid of skeletons was a bad idea. The rest stumbled away or back to their friends and then healed before you noticed. A lot of them even fell back asleep because you've been taking so long.
I didn't think it did? I'm sure I've detected traps and then seen hounds run over them. or detected traps underneath trolls etc. actually definitely in vaults. monsters never set off traps do they?

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Old October 3, 2010, 13:16   #82
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Heracles had to get hit with some very exotic poison to die, for example. Anything less would have just bounced off. Prometheus was sentenced to have a vulture eat his liver for all eternity! He just kept growing it back over and over again, despite being tied to a rock.
not sure I agree with these two examples

Heracles was the son of Zeus, a greek god. he should be expected to realistically be super-human. and Prometheus was a titan being punished by Zeus with a divine punishment. his liver grew back because Zeus willed it, not because prometheus had awesome regenerative capacities

none of our angband characters have either divine heritage, nor do they appear to be involved in some petty revenge scenario. of course, Morgoth is virtually a god so he could probably enact some form of divine punishment on those who try to kill him and fail, but the game doesn't model that

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Old October 3, 2010, 14:23   #83
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by fyonn View Post
the the witch-king of angmar really was super-human but got killed when he was stabbed in the leg by a hobbit (Merry) and then had a sword stuck into his helmet by a nurse-maid (Eowyn). bear in mind that Eowyn was not an experienced fighter, she just got lucky.
Eowyn was a fighter. A good fighter born into female body in world ruled by men, and based on her words not stranger to combat.

Witch-king was not a human. Not anymore. He was basically a incorporeal ghost and as such difficult to kill. Yet given right weapon and right person to wield that weapon he could be killed.

Ringwraiths power was based on fear, if you didn't fear them you could beat them. Witch-king was greatest of the ringwraiths, but nowhere close to strengths of Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel (or any high-elf for that matter) Aragorn and definitely not anywhere close to Balrog of Moria. Even Frodo could resist Witch-king (but not The Ring). Movie made Witch-king way more powerful than what he was in the book.

Our heroes go beyond any of these. Our heroes are preparing to kill Morgoth, which is by far stronger being than anything in LoTR. Second to Eru in power. What this game is about is basically impossible task of killing a immortal being that is basically a god. So our heroes need to be gods to do it.
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Old October 3, 2010, 14:27   #84
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none of our angband characters have either divine heritage
I'm not so sure about that. Dunedain are part-maiar, and maiar are "divine" by nature. Same kind of beings as Valar, but weaker.
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Old October 3, 2010, 18:17   #85
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I didn't think it did? I'm sure I've detected traps and then seen hounds run over them. or detected traps underneath trolls etc. actually definitely in vaults. monsters never set off traps do they?
No, I was being silly and suggesting that monsters already having set off traps is already built in to the game. But no, they don't.
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Old October 4, 2010, 00:36   #86
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That is the opposite of scaling. No difference in effect in relation to number of hp.

Paralysis is a timer, or counter, or call it what you will. The change to that counter does not currently scale one iota with your hitpoints.
Losing 50% of your hit points doesn't scale with your hit points. It is always 50% of your hit points regardless of how many hit points you have.

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Old October 4, 2010, 01:08   #87
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Actually - rather than continue trolling, I'll just state for the record that there's far too much fuss about what hit points are in this thread.

Feel free to rejustify whatever argument you're making by assuming that every character regardless of level has 100 hit points, but has a 'life factor' which scales down damage that they receive.

My position on hit points is that they are an excellent game mechanism, and abstraction, and if you read anything beyond that, you're probably doing too much. This includes resisting the idea of some types of damage scaling with your hit points.

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Old October 4, 2010, 05:24   #88
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... Prometheus was a titan being punished by Zeus with a divine punishment. his liver grew back because Zeus willed it, not because prometheus had awesome regenerative capacities
Ahem...per "Theogony" Prometheus is a generation-one god (like any other titan) while Zeus is generation-two. Prometheus would be expected to "naturally" heals about as well as Aphrodite [another generation-one god(dess)], and Aphrodite's recovery speed from "mortal would have been instantly killed" is pretty well documented in the Iliad.

[Taking Heaven and Earth to be generation-zero.]

I don't think Tolkein's Maiar and Valar "analogize" well to the usual ancient religions. Also, I'm pretty sure anything above CL2 Warrior in hp is "superhumanly hard to kill" so real-world and Tolkein-world realism arguments are both already out the window.
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Old October 4, 2010, 14:13   #89
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What you want is not a HP system. In system design, you make decisions on how you want gameplay to go. The important thing is to embrace your decisions rather than mucking things up thinking you are not happy with a decision you made earlier.

Try to find a copy of Runequest for a different approach that I would guess would be more to your liking.
Thanks for the example. I have been thinking about this many times.

The executioner example is properly ridicilous but does not bother me much. I accept that HP is just an abstraction.

There are two things that do bother me:
- Almost dead characters can attack, cast spells etc. the same as at full health.
- Instant healing. Try to imagine Morgoths's frustration - after every manastorm and/or series of good hits with Grond, the @ is almost dead and every time instantly heals to full health. Over the course of the fight @ takes enough damage to kill him/her several times and yet heals again and again and finally kills the poor Morgoth.

Are there any examples for different approaches?
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Old October 4, 2010, 17:09   #90
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Are there any examples for different approaches?
It comes down to what you want to design for. If you want the @ to fight thousands of battles,many against ridiculously powerful foes, you need to set things up so that there are no instakills and the @ can heal quickly. HP does what it was designed to do. Even semi-realistic systems would leave the @ with only a negligible chance to win.

Here is a fundamental question. Are forty 1-point wounds worse than one 10-point wound? In the additive world of HP they are. However, you can set things up so that minor wounds are minor wounds no matter how many you have. Major wounds and worse have immediate nasty consequences. However, this is a fundamentally different approach and you cannot put it on top of a HP system.

I only played Runequest a few times, and the truth is that I hardly remember anything except the roar when you throw all of the dice to determine what happens on an attack. I mentioned it because it was sufficiently popular you might have heard of it or be able to find it. Getting really esoteric, I am pretty sure the wounds distinction I mentioned is in "Skyrealms of Jorune" but it would be amazing if you come across that.

As to the troll, we already have lifeforce in V. It's called CON. However, like everything else, it is designed to be additive. The deep trap that costs about half your hp is the one that irresistably drops con by 25 points, from 18/100 internal to 3 is at least in the ballpark. As I am opposed to attacks that drop a stat by more that 1 you can easily figure out my position on that. If you want repeated attacks to kill the @, that is easy too, just take out the floor on stats of 3 and embrace negative numbers. Once again, that is going against fundamental design decisions.

I wouldn't mind seeing CON change to be multiplicative or something more complicated. I wouldn't mind seeing stats be linearized and allowed to drop below 0. However, those are major design decisions that should be addressed in their own rights. Breaking the system with traps because you do not like the fundamental design decisions is extremely misguided IMO.
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