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Old February 8, 2008, 18:22   #11
Bandobras
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I seem to remember that auto_more is very broken (probably intended for people with a separate window for messages, or something). But easy_more is mostly correct, so any specific reports may help locate the remaining errors.

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Originally Posted by Anne View Post
I'm assuming that restoring from a copied save file won't interfere with getting clean results, but if you think that's a bad idea for some reason, let me know and I'll ditch the idea.
Yeah, restoring is OK and savefiles greatly help in reproducing obscure errors. Thank you again for your help. I hope you have time to actually play.

Quote:
[about Karzack's idea] Actually that's not a bad idea. Maybe it would be best in the case of something like bless?
Yeah, a file that explains Bless, Hero, Berserk would be nice. Even things that are obvious from description and experimentation, like feather fall, may be explained here for the player to make sure he did not miss any additional effect (like resistance to teleport level from feather fall, but that is probably not true in Un, I don't remember ).
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Old February 9, 2008, 07:56   #12
Anne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
Thank you again for your help. I hope you have time to actually play.
You're very welcome. And actually, I'm having a lot of fun with my little test dummy character. It was a little hard to get used to at first, going without any of the cool little options - you would not believe how fast a person can get spoiled with that auto-search! On the other hand, a lot of the bugginess I saw at first isn't happening at all with my clean character, so that's a definite plus. The good thing is that once I'm used to what's -supposed- to happen with my clean character, then I'll be better equipped to recognize wonkiness when I do try it with options.

Speaking of which... that crashing that I mentioned earlier, I've found the culprit. Enabling cheat_lore and bringing up the current -object- knowledge crashes the game every time. Other current knowledge topics don't do that.

Some other things I've noticed:

When carry_query_flag is enabled (it is by default), there doesn't seem to be a way to get something from the floor you're standing on other than to move off and then back on again, which will bring up the query. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to do it, raw newb that I am.

I sold an unknown wand to the shop after using Gauge Magic which identified the number of charges on it (but not the type).
"You sold a Wand of Light (9 charges) (g) for 109 gold.
The shopkeeper glares at you.
You have no more Blue Wands of Light (8 charges) (g)."
Is that the way it's supposed to work? It lost a charge between my inventory and the shopkeeper's. Maybe it's assumed he has to use up a charge to identify it? If not, then there's something wonky there. I've only tried this once, so I can't be sure whether it would happen every time or not yet.

The monster damage bar remains onscreen after avoiding a fight, even after walking quite some distance away from a stationary monster such as a mushroom patch. This isn't a real problem except for the fact that it covers up other things normally visible on the status bar. Not a big problem, just an inconvenience, and maybe it deserves a look. I could see it if the monster was still close by or chasing me, but not a stationary monster halfway across the level.

And this isn't a bug, it's just downright fun and I just had to mention it - I found an area in the dungeon where I kept kept seeing "Click!" every couple of steps. It drove me a bit batty trying to figure out what it was, but it was also a lot of fun trying to puzzle it out (it's still a mystery). This is one of those cool little things that makes Un so enjoyable. I loved it!
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Old February 9, 2008, 08:15   #13
Rizwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne View Post
Some other things I've noticed:

When carry_query_flag is enabled (it is by default), there doesn't seem to be a way to get something from the floor you're standing on other than to move off and then back on again, which will bring up the query. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to do it, raw newb that I am.
Did you try pressing 5 on the keypad? (I think its the stand there and do nothing key) It works for me.
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Old February 9, 2008, 12:24   #14
Bandobras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne View Post
The good thing is that once I'm used to what's -supposed- to happen with my clean character, then I'll be better equipped to recognize wonkiness when I do try it with options.
That'd be very useful. Options are generally quite untested...

Quote:
Speaking of which... that crashing that I mentioned earlier, I've found the culprit. Enabling cheat_lore and bringing up the current -object- knowledge crashes the game every time. Other current knowledge topics don't do that.
Well spotted. 100gp is yours. Fixed.

Quote:
When carry_query_flag is enabled
Already answered by Rizwan. There must be the same command in roguelike keyset. Was it '.' or 'g'?

Quote:
I sold an unknown wand to the shop after using Gauge Magic which identified the number of charges on it (but not the type).
"You sold a Wand of Light (9 charges) (g) for 109 gold.
The shopkeeper glares at you.
You have no more Blue Wands of Light (8 charges) (g)."
Filed a bug report.

Quote:
The monster damage bar remains onscreen after avoiding a fight, even after walking quite some distance away from a stationary monster such as a mushroom patch. This isn't a real problem except for the fact that it covers up other things normally visible on the status bar. Not a big problem, just an inconvenience, and maybe it deserves a look. I could see it if the monster was still close by or chasing me, but not a stationary monster halfway across the level.
It only obscures gold, which is quite unimportant down there, unlike the knowledge that the last monster that chased you didn't die, but lurks somewhere. When you get back to town, the gold is visible again, unless you run amok targeting townsfolk.

Quote:
And this isn't a bug, it's just downright fun and I just had to mention it - I found an area in the dungeon where I kept kept seeing "Click!" every couple of steps. It drove me a bit batty trying to figure out what it was, but it was also a lot of fun trying to puzzle it out (it's still a mystery). This is one of those cool little things that makes Un so enjoyable. I loved it!
Yeah, deeper down you sometimes hear clicks and then wails and death cries. Just be careful.
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Old February 9, 2008, 18:23   #15
Anne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
Options are generally quite untested...
I have to admit this made me "woo!" I enjoy testing. What can I say, I'm a female - I do enjoy the hack & slash, but a steady diet of it tends to get old for me after awhile. So testing works in nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizwin
Did you try pressing 5 on the keypad? (I think its the stand there and do nothing key) It works for me.
Thank you! I believe that should be '.' in the roguelike keyset. I had a feeling I was just missing something on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
Yeah, deeper down you sometimes hear clicks and then wails and death cries. Just be careful.
Sounds quite fascinating! Now if I can only keep a character alive long enough to hear that...

Brought over from another thread since it's more appropriate to comment here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
You are right. I tried "replenish", but I got "replenishs mana of you", which was quite unnatural (though "hits to replenish mana of one target" further in the description was perfect), so I settled for "return", which gives "returns mana to you" and "hits to return mana to one target". Sorry, no chances of localizing Un, either, if even the grammar of the simplest languages on Earth brings such trouble.
That clarifies the mana gain perfectly. Now that I have a somewhat clearer understanding of how the descriptions are generated, I can see that some of the things I'd assumed to be typos are really just limitations in the ability of coding to deal with the complexities of the language. English can be pretty complicated, really, with all its exceptions to rules and such, and coding a 'perfect' system would be far more work than it's worth (if it was even possible). The important thing is that the description is understandable. As long as we have that, we can live with a bit of untidyness like "electrifys". I'm sure I'll still throw you things here and there that aren't possible within the system, but that's because you know far better than I do what's possible and what isn't.
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Old February 9, 2008, 21:49   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne View Post
I have to admit this made me "woo!" I enjoy testing. What can I say, I'm a female - I do enjoy the hack & slash, but a steady diet of it tends to get old for me after awhile. So testing works in nicely.
I understand you quite well. As much as I enjoy hack and slash, helping with development just opens another dimension, you know, like being able to help with a director's cut of your favourite movie.

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Sounds quite fascinating! Now if I can only keep a character alive long enough to hear that...
Just make sure you are not the one that makes the noises.

Quote:
That clarifies the mana gain perfectly.
Oh, I'm glad.

Quote:
As long as we have that, we can live with a bit of untidyness like "electrifys".
Well, that one is reported as a bug. Either we change "electrify" to "strike with lightning" or something, or we fix the plural forms in the engine.

Quote:
I'm sure I'll still throw you things here and there that aren't possible within the system, but that's because you know far better than I do what's possible and what isn't.
That's good. Sometimes it's easy to tweak the system, or sidestep it. At least, it's good to see the limitations in action, so that we are aware of them...
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Old February 10, 2008, 06:41   #17
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Carrying over some things from the other thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras on the subject of charging power
No, it's a factor that determines the probability of success, if I don't oversimplify things? Perhaps we should calculate the probability and display here, then...

Yeah, in both cases of "power". How to say it better?
Hmm. It would be helpful to come up with something that's more clear, but I'm not sure how to put it. Could it be explained as a percentage? "has a 40% chance of recharging <item>"? I've come across three different levels of charging power so far, so whatever we come up with, it needs to differentiate between them. Maybe someone else who reads this will have a suggestion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras on the subject of hastes
It's now "it makes you faster". Is your version better? I'm not a native speaker...
No, yours is just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
Sounds reasonable, but it's the same object flag as in ?Teleportation, only a numerical factor (quite complex formula, actually) differs. Is it worth extending the engine? If so, I'll file a feature request to that effect.
Truthfully, I'm not sure whether it's important at all. It really depends on whether you want that to be something for raw newbies to figure out on their own. They're the ones who wouldn't have seen things like blink and teleportation before. It certainly isn't vital, and I'd say if it would be an easy change, then it's something to consider. But if it would take too much work, then maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras on the subject of the hungry message before traveling
Fixed. I tried to enable eating from the menu, but it's too messy, e.g. when you gorge yourself or spit fire the rest of the window has to be updated... So now 'E' just exits the travel menu with a message (the same one-sentence warning, as before the travel menu).
Wonderful. That will make it less confusing to a raw newbie taking his first steps in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandobras
So, how to make it clear that it's only a warning and that is does not mean the character is hungry (it means the character is not Full, actually)?
I'd be for:
1. getting rid of that message and making it a note that pops up, which makes it look more like information than a warning.
2. getting rid of the automatic feeding upon arrival - if they've already received the note, and "hungry" appears on their screen, they'll know what to do about it. If they ignore that and actually die of starvation that early in the game, well, it'll just teach them to actually read the notes next time. lol. The way it's set up was definitely a worthwhile idea - it just isn't coming across well in practice.

A few new ones:

Staff of Light - "When used, it lights up the room you are in and surrounds you with magic of radius 1 to light up. When set in a trap, it lights up one target." -IF- this is supposed to do damage to monsters that are vulnerable to light (and that might not be the case) it doesn't say that in the description (which might be intentional anyway).

Staff of Enlightenment - "It sustains intelligence and wisdom." Does it have to be wielded for that to be true? If so, can that be added in somehow? Maybe another category could be coded into the descriptions such as "When wielded, (yadda yadda)". Maybe using the term 'categories' isn't very clear - I mean like the ones for "When aimed, it does this" and "When quaffed, it does this".

Rod of Disarming - "When zapped, it creates a beam to remove traps from your enemies. When set in a trap, it removes traps from one target." I have this mental image of a monster wearing a bomb around his waist and shouting "Give me all your gp or die, sucker!" Do monsters actually have traps on them, or is there something funky here?

And a feature request for someday - Word of Recall was modified on Zangband to allow you to optionally "reset" the dungeon's recall level to the one you're standing on when you read it. It was apparently done because of traps that could dump a character onto a lower level than they're ready for. If that happened, you could climb up to a safer level, then read the scroll, and it would ask you if you want to reset it to that one. I'd like to see that here at some point, although I'm sure you guys already have tons of things on the todo list as it is. It was an extremely useful little goody.
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Old February 10, 2008, 18:06   #18
Karzack
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I just received a "Bug: Bad Maze on level. Please report it."

I found it listed on the bug list, but thought I should mention it anyway. I received it while going from lvl 15 of the Midgewater Marsh to lvl 16.

Is this needed? Probably not since its been reported once.
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Old February 10, 2008, 20:53   #19
Bandobras
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One more case does not hurt. Updated the bug with your report. Thanks.
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Old February 10, 2008, 21:18   #20
Bandobras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne View Post
Hmm. It would be helpful to come up with something that's more clear, but I'm not sure how to put it. Could it be explained as a percentage? [...]
Filed a feature request to that effect.

Quote:
I'd be for:
1. getting rid of that message and making it a note that pops up, which makes it look more like information than a warning.
2. getting rid of the automatic feeding upon arrival - if they've already received the note, and "hungry" appears on their screen, they'll know what to do about it. If they ignore that and actually die of starvation that early in the game, well, it'll just teach them to actually read the notes next time. lol. The way it's set up was definitely a worthwhile idea - it just isn't coming across well in practice.
Added to the bug report about auto-eat. Actually, players can probably starve without Hungry status, but they can't with Full status. Of course it can be tweaked so that only Hungry status is dangerous, but then travels become quite cheap and safe.

Quote:
Staff of Light - "When used, it lights up the room you are in and surrounds you with magic of radius 1 to light up. When set in a trap, it lights up one target." -IF- this is supposed to do damage to monsters that are vulnerable to light (and that might not be the case) it doesn't say that in the description (which might be intentional anyway).
It says about damage, but only when the staff is identified with scroll of *Identify*, ordinary Identify does not work. Strange, but I'm not sure if a bug.

Quote:
Staff of Enlightenment - "It sustains intelligence and wisdom." Does it have to be wielded for that to be true?
Yes. The general rule is that any items provide their constant effects (as opposed to temporary one-time effects) only when wielded. I guess this should be somehow illustrated in documentation.

Quote:
Rod of Disarming - "When zapped, it creates a beam to remove traps from your enemies. When set in a trap, it removes traps from one target." I have this mental image of a monster wearing a bomb around his waist and shouting "Give me all your gp or die, sucker!" Do monsters actually have traps on them, or is there something funky here?
Yes, that's a special case that is not handled properly. Filed a bug report.

Quote:
And a feature request for someday - Word of Recall was modified on Zangband to allow you to optionally "reset" the dungeon's recall level to the one you're standing on when you read it. It was apparently done because of traps that could dump a character onto a lower level than they're ready for. If that happened, you could climb up to a safer level, then read the scroll, and it would ask you if you want to reset it to that one. I'd like to see that here at some point, although I'm sure you guys already have tons of things on the todo list as it is. It was an extremely useful little goody.
This feature is present in Un. If it does not work for you, please report.
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