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Old July 4, 2020, 05:12   #231
mrfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
ADDENDUM: It occurs to me that before you attain CL 15 and buy the 2nd book from the store, BGs don't have much going for them vs unique orcs. If you're finding yourself in that spot, I'd say you're not bullying random monsters enough. It's much more fun and profitable to "seek battle" against weaker enemies as a BG than with other classes.
I'm not sure I'd want to run into you down a dark alley.

But seriously, your method sounds interesting and I'll have to try it when I choose Blackguard again.
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Old July 4, 2020, 07:05   #232
archolewa
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This was the basic strategy I was using, and it worked great...until you had a string of spell failures, and/or you whiffed your one attack per round. Then I was running away with my tail between my legs. And even if that worked, I got ground down by the unique's escorts. And I'm pretty aggressive about smashing mobs as a blackguard, so it's not like I was diving too aggressively.

The only time I found this strategy worked with any sort of consistency was the first time I played the BG, when I found Totilla early.

And I honestly never found the healing from casting spells to be sufficient to keep up with the damage I was taking. It could take the edge off of it, but that was it. And since I usually had 1.6 or more blows vs. 1 blow for leap, I'm not convinced it was actually better than just attacking and phasing away to use cure light wounds.

I honestly don't know how you're getting an iron jaw. My BG's jaw is made of glass. They just can't do enough damage fast enough, or have high enough hitpoints, or enough healing to win a long fight (and most interesting fights with a BG are long in my experience).
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Old July 4, 2020, 16:51   #233
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Perhaps increasing the initial number of blows can help. I had an easier start with a paladin or ranger (with a strong race, like dwarf). Or equip them with a katana.
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:05   #234
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It is not working for you, or was not working for you, and that sucks. I don't know if discussing it more will help or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archolewa View Post
I usually had 1.6 or more blows
This is too many blows. I basically never have this many blows as a BG before statgain. Try a heavier weapon. But even if you do have this many blows, why does "whiffing your one attack" hurt so bad? You've only used 0.60 turns to whiff with 1.6 blows.

Quote:
1 blow for leap, I'm not convinced it was actually better than just attacking
I agree that's why in my script I don't use Leap unless it's an increase in blows. Just keep using Maim to maximize self-healing and enemy stun.

Quote:
And I honestly never found the healing from casting spells to be sufficient to keep up with the damage I was taking.
Are you using Maim? Stun is a very underrated effect for melee. It reduces accuracy and damage by 25% each, creates a 10% chance to miss turns completely, and gives the player +10 to-hit on crit rolls. I think it cuts enemy damage output by 35-40% (.75 damage * .9 turns is 32.5% reduction without including the additional misses).
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:06   #235
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I did an experiment. I created a level 15 Blackguard with basic equipment available in the store and then fought Ufthak (depth 14) 3 times. I defeated him all 3 times without retreating, though it was pretty close in every case. I had no consumables and no ranged attacks. I fought with the starting tulwar (+0, +0) 11.5 dmg/rnd on 1.3 blows. I started with full HP and SP. The 2nd and 3rd times I kept track of how much healing I got out of Maim (and occassionally Bers when he wandered a square away). I got 136 and 159 points of healing on a character with about 160 max HP. I had one =Open Wounds but I forgot to use it every time grrr.

I meant to exit without saving but I forgot on the third try. So I can't easily post the save file for you to try exactly this again. Here's the dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=23688

Attached is the save file after the 3rd battle. You could use the debug commands to heal and try Ulfast (depth 16, human but orc-like) or Shagrat (depth 19) with this equipment set. CL20 should be sufficient for Shagrat I would think, even with this kit, and you can mix in the 2 blow Leap at that point.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Orcrist.zip (5.4 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by DavidMedley; July 4, 2020 at 17:15.
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:18   #236
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Originally Posted by Cuboideb View Post
equip them with a katana.
Katanas are nice, but have a cost of 594 out of a starting budget of 600 iirc.
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:26   #237
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Took this same character with the same horrible kit to CL20 and defeated Shagrat on the first try as well. I remembered to use =Open Wounds this time
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:51   #238
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I'll have to try it with lower blows the next time I try a Blackguard (got frustrated with the class, so now I'm trying again for a Mage win). It's also possible that I wasn't using Maim Foe enough (I used it whenever stun ran out, and often times didn't if my shield bash stunned him for me, sounds like you use it more frequently than that?).

If 1.6 blows is too many, then it sounds like the default point buy for BG isn't optimal and needs to be changed, because that's what I get when I go with the default stat allocation. As far as the weapon I use, I always go with whichever one gives me the most damage per round. I pretty much ignore weight. Do Blackguards get some special bonus out of using heavier weapons that doesn't show up in the damage per round calculation?

And it could be that my whiffing with each blow is more psychological than anything else. The whole energy gain to next turn thing is so opaque that I largely ignore it. I just notice that sometimes I can land two attacks before the enemy gets to do anything.
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Old July 4, 2020, 17:59   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archolewa View Post
Do Blackguards get some special bonus out of using heavier weapons that doesn't show up in the damage per round calculation?
Yes. Their spells do more damage.

EDIT: You can see that in the numbers; it's not hidden. But it doesn't show in the damage per round calculation.
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Old July 4, 2020, 18:12   #240
archolewa
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Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
Yes. Their spells do more damage.
O_O

Well, that explains a *lot*. I thought the blows from the spells were just standard weapon swings. What exactly is the formula for the blows from spells? Is it the weapons damage plus some bonus based on weight?
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