Thoughts on 4.2.4

[fizzix]

It's been a while since I've played a full game, but I recently completed a dwarf paladin (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=25029) and wanted to share a few of my thoughts.

I really like the class remakes. I think overall, this was a fantastic change to the game. Classes feel more different than they did back in 3.x. I think I found a use (even if small) for every spell in the Paladin books, except for remove curse. I have no idea if classes are balanced, but I don't feel like they need to be.

I also like the remake of several monster classes, especially the Ainu. The shape changing is a really nice touch. Making spiders more powerful is also really nice. This is the first time I've really seen them. I have minor beefs with huorns moving so fast, I feel like they should be slow. I didn't get a feel for what Black Breath really does. By the time I fought the ringwraiths, I had pretty powerful gear and they only got it off once on me.

I'm looking forward to whichever part you tackle next (races? items? artifacts?)

The ole Angband problem of the latter half of the game being kind of a grindfest is still an issue. It's hard to resolve without some fundamental changes that probably aren't warranted. The first half of the game is great though. So is the very end when you face down the final boss (the Tarrasque).

One thing that I think slows down the late game in a negative way is monster summoning, specifically the ability of summoning explosions from monsters summoning other summoned monsters. It means that unless you can kill a monster before it gets a summon off, it's best not to engage at all. This makes very few late game enemies that you can square off with until you amass endgame gear. Perhaps a flag for summoned monsters that prevents them from summoning anything else for X turns might be enough to solve most of the issue. Maybe there could even be some monsters that *only* appear as summons.

One specific think about Paladins is the single combat which is a great idea. However, the cost of losing the loot after the battle is over was too much of a price to pay. I only wound up using it to cheese Quylthulgs, who also got me a free heal. So at very least I'd change single combat so that the player cannot regen. You can still use it to buy time by single combating a weak enemy and then chugging a bunch of healing potions. Or maybe reset player health & mana to what it was before entering single combat? I dunno. Maybe it's ok to have this be cheeseable.

I'll probably think of some more things later.

[ewert]

Remove Curse really depends on your individual game on whether you find in midgame a really good item with a too annoying a curse (think your first Ring of Speed has a 35+ strength curse on it, finding that ?*Remove vs. enough levels to able to uncurse with your spell instead). I am currently trying to get a Paladin winner, and the try before last which was winnable died to usual inattention, but he had a moment midgame where I had to plonk a cursed item in home as I did not have the spellbook yet nor *Remove curses.

I thought single combat drops the loot at the position where the monster was when cast, that is why you don't find it next to you? I am constantly using it to combat the summoner problem actually. Otherwise yes, end-game still results in antisummon nook dug out for a lot of enemies ...

I agree the idea of having summoned monsters be flagged as unable to summon, unless summoned by an unique capable of summoning (hey, it is an unique, their minions might have minions!).

Also, have you dabbled with thrown weapons? My blackguard/paladin often just carry a bunch of spears, throwing axes and daggers (are there any other throw enable weapon types?) with Acid, Gondolin, Holy Avenger etc. flags. Chugging out 100 dmg early game and >300dmg with lategame good weapons is nice. Inscriptions of @v#=g to keep them picked up and slotted, and a macro of v[Enter]' works for ease of use, just careful if you run out of throwables you will throw your spellbooks, haha!

My 2 cents, love the lesser amount of tunnelers, makes hasty ents and black reavers feel more unique now that every damn other stuff can't tunnel as well. I would say tunnelers, hounds, spiders etc. monster type/tactics are all in a good spot now. Biggest gripe for me as well is the summoners summoning summoners, since every top end dragon can summon as well as big demons etc...

[fizzix]

I notice throwing weapons could be powerful, but by that time I couldn't justify the slots for them

[malcontent]

Originally Posted by fizzix

I notice throwing weapons could be powerful, but by that time I couldn't justify the slots for them

You can now keep weapons that can be thrown in you quiver - freeing up slots - by inscribing them properly

[ewert]

Originally Posted by fizzix

I notice throwing weapons could be powerful, but by that time I couldn't justify the slots for them

You need to inscribe them with a @vx and they go into quiver for 5 slots.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Fizzix!!! So great to see you!

Originally Posted by fizzix

...I didn't get a feel for what Black Breath really does. By the time I fought the ringwraiths, I had pretty powerful gear and they only got it off once on me.

Black Breath, if I remember rightly, hits to con and str that can sap you even when those are sustained, and experience drain, of course. Can be a real pain (although their summons of other ringwraiths is the biggest danger). Makes fighting even the Rider not worth the risk until very late in the game.

Originally Posted by fizzix

...The first half of the game is great though. So is the very end when you face down the final boss (the Tarrasque).

LOVED this!

Originally Posted by fizzix

...One specific think about Paladins is the single combat which is a great idea. However, the cost of losing the loot after the battle is over was too much of a price to pay.

Huh? Cost of the loot? It drops where the monster was located when @ entered the single combat. If you decide to have @ enter into single combat with a distant monster, I think it is reasonable that @ has to traverse to where the monster was actually located to get the treasure and not have it teleported to him.

[Hounded]

Just finished with a Dwarf Paladin. As someone who has avoided Paladins for ages (found them inexplicably dull) I have to say the new version was a blast to play.

Single Combat is great and does have it's risks mainly in that you're commited to finish the fight (so be sure you can take it before you get in and for heavens sake don't SC a lava breather unless you've fire immunity). It could be accused of being cheesy but that's just the manifestation for the class. Can confirm that the loot all drops where the critter was before you cast it. Creatures resisting it also adds a nice balance so it's far from trouble free. Frequently had summoners get some minions on deck to wait for my return before I managed to pull them into SC (master Q's most often).

Agree with remove curse. While I like the variety of curses (and shed no tears on the departure of sticky curses) they're generally just not worth the time. By the time I could remove them (and I'm a grinder so it wasn't particularly late game) I had no interest anything which showed up cursed.