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Old June 27, 2009, 17:15   #51
PowerDiver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Additional desiderata:

6. Shadows shall not be disconnected.
Before you start onto this, let me give a warning. To someone with knowledge of real analysis, disconnected may not mean what you think it means. Unfortunately, I have forgotten too much to say anything specific with any certainty.

I am not saying your (6) is necessarily inherently bad when you define connected the way that any normal person would. However, it is my suspicion that the intuitive definition will lead to strangenesses somewhere else. The mathematics on mappings from a euclidean space to a discrete space can be very very strange.
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Old June 27, 2009, 18:55   #52
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Yes, I can already see that, because the diamond model is not symmetric. I don't see how to fix it, but that doesn't mean fixing it is impossible. I suspect that forcing symmetry with a permissive combination will solve things. (In that case, there's some maximum length for single-pillar shadows. An unpermissive combination would give weird conical shadows, even at a distance--all very well for the sun and the moon, but doesn't make sense if you consider, say, 1/4 grid size as the diffraction limit.)

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Old June 27, 2009, 19:18   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Before you start onto this, let me give a warning. To someone with knowledge of real analysis, disconnected may not mean what you think it means. Unfortunately, I have forgotten too much to say anything specific with any certainty.

I am not saying your (6) is necessarily inherently bad when you define connected the way that any normal person would. However, it is my suspicion that the intuitive definition will lead to strangenesses somewhere else. The mathematics on mappings from a euclidean space to a discrete space can be very very strange.
It needs translation when going into higher mathematics. A simple translation would be "for any given shadowed square, there is another shadowed square with distance one under V's distance function". (After other terms are defined, of course.)

Any non-sophist mathematician reading Pete's description should immediately realize he's not using connected in the technical sense, and should have little problem working up the required translations.
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Old June 27, 2009, 20:55   #54
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It needs translation when going into higher mathematics. A simple translation would be "for any given shadowed square, there is another shadowed square with distance one under V's distance function". (After other terms are defined, of course.)
I don't think that is enough. It is not enough to define a topology in the model from scratch. I think you need to look at the topology in the model induced by the topology you start with and the transformation you are using. I think to make a consistent model, you need to enforce that every image in the model of a connected set [in particular a line of sight] remains connected.

Since no one has defined a formal mapping from Euclidean space to any of the models, there is nothing specific to talk about. I don't want to argue about details anyway. I was just warning that things can be a lot more complicated than intuition suggests. What looks like a problem may just be the natural result of consistency when the underlying math is counterintuitive.

I agree that Pete's (6), as he intended it, is a desirable goal, but it may be hard to achieve.
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Old June 27, 2009, 21:06   #55
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You know, when all is said and done, Angband's definition of projectable and visible, minus the "hockey stick", isn't all that bad... Surely it just needs some tweaking?
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Old June 27, 2009, 21:19   #56
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You know, I have confused myself now. Why don't you all just laugh at me, and then we can move on and pretend I never said anything about Pete's request about shadows.
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Old June 27, 2009, 21:20   #57
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You know, when all is said and done, Angband's definition of projectable and visible, minus the "hockey stick", isn't all that bad... Surely it just needs some tweaking?
Well how about two tweaks.

1. When a 'project' hits something part way to the targeted grid, check whether the grid hit would be targetable if that grid was the target. That would stop 'trick shots'.

2. Allow Zaiband style flexibility ('diagonal starts') to avoid hitting walls early when not necessary.

Code:
??o
?x#
#x#
@.#
You won't meet many of the 'desired features' but you would get rid of two things that bug me most about the present system.
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Old June 28, 2009, 01:01   #58
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You know, I have confused myself now. Why don't you all just laugh at me, and then we can move on and pretend I never said anything about Pete's request about shadows.
Hey, I've already been laughing at the entire thread. And the other one.
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Old June 28, 2009, 01:19   #59
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Hey, I've already been laughing at the entire thread. And the other one.
I presume you're also the one laughing at the piles of arrows that stack up around my feet every time it seems I should be able to hit something, but can't.

Been playing solid for over a year + half; that's a long time to still not have an intuitive grasp of the targeting system. I don't think I'm that obtuse. Single biggest thing holding the game back, IMO. And once it's done for V it really should be ported to the variants.
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Old June 28, 2009, 01:57   #60
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[QUOTE=Marble Dice;21223]Do you no longer feel that DFOV would make LOS very obvious, especially with the highlighting feedback on visible tiles?[QUOTE]

Highlighting would solve issues about what you can target. However, aeneas mentioned a death due to not understanding LOS. Presumably that was about what can target you *after* you move, and I'm not sure how to make highlighting solve that problem.
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