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Old May 12, 2009, 07:53   #1
PowerDiver
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learning without spoilers

The way I think learning should work is that the player should be provided, through a gloriously transparent UI, with the full content of all of the edit files. However, most people consider that info to be "spoilers", which should not be provided.

My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.

Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?
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Old May 12, 2009, 09:40   #2
Atarlost
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Rune-based ID would help a lot, especially if you could note when all the runes on it had been identified. You could then know that your ring of the dog is a ring of the dog because it has the same runes, and that there are no unidentified runes that could be additional properties.

Or you could just make everything EASY_KNOW.
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Old May 12, 2009, 09:56   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The way I think learning should work is that the player should be provided, through a gloriously transparent UI, with the full content of all of the edit files. However, most people consider that info to be "spoilers", which should not be provided.

My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.

Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?
My 2p: don't make *anything* dependent on previous games (we don't want another set of metagame issues like monster memory). I'd prefer to have fuller ID-by-use than spoiler-ish info in the game, so I'd go for your rune-based system, where an item is fully ID'd when its last unknown property is established. Logically the game should tell the player how many unknown properties an item has (how many runes), but I see no harm in not doing that. It's really just an abstracted convenience to make the item ID'd in the end.
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Old May 12, 2009, 10:05   #4
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My 2p: don't make *anything* dependent on previous games (we don't want another set of metagame issues like monster memory).
I personally dislike the idea of "inherited" monster memory and never start a game from a dead-character's save file.
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Old May 12, 2009, 14:49   #5
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Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
I personally dislike the idea of "inherited" monster memory and never start a game from a dead-character's save file.
Is anyone working dumping the monster memory into a separate file so you can use it for, let's say, competition play.
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Old May 12, 2009, 15:24   #6
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Is anyone working dumping the monster memory into a separate file so you can use it for, let's say, competition play.
How about this:

Every time you go to your home you "write your memoires" and put monster memory in a file that can be used by all characters [Per user, where the OS port supports UID].

"Inherit monster memory" could be a birth option. OK, I know 'certain people' hate adding options but I think it makes sense this way, rather than having the odd "load from dead character's save file" stuff.
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Old May 12, 2009, 15:34   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.
Possibly I'm missing something, but main benefit of this I see to help players avoid scumming around for millions of turns trying to find an item with rTime. Possibly this could be achieved in other ways-- e.g. an effects table which describes the effect, and some lore about what can be done to resist it. For example, for time, it might say, "There is no known way to resist this effect," whereas for nether, it might say, "Dim legends hint at a small handful of items hidden in the dungeon's depths which might grant the wearer protection from this effect." Otherwise, either the item the user has found is worth wearing, regardless of what else might be out there, or it isn't.

Quote:
Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?
I don't think learning should generally apply to a particular item-- if my character is wearing multiple unidentified rings/excellent weapons and armor, it seems like it should be extremely difficult, even if I know that I am resisting fire, to know what the source of that resistance is. If the player has only one unidentified magic item that they should be able to attribute any effects not granted by their current equipment correctly, but if the player knows they are wielding a source of rFire, they should not be able to learn that the unidentified ring they have on is also a source of rFire. I do think, however, that the player should become aware of any obvious effects provided by their equipment and that this should show in the character dump for example.

As far as giving a name to the item, I'm not sure. If the user knows the number of properties the item has (e.g. various runes engraved on it), then it makes sense that they should be able to know its full name when all the properties are known. I think it'd be more fun to keep the property count unknown though.
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Old May 12, 2009, 16:06   #8
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Originally Posted by saarn View Post
Possibly I'm missing something, but main benefit of this I see to help players avoid scumming around for millions of turns trying to find an item with rTime.
The other obvious way is its nonappearance on the resistance table on the character sheet. That's also how I know there's no resistance for gravity or plasma, though I've never searched the edit files for them, and no one's ever told me so (that I can remember).

Also, the fixed number of runes argument works pretty well for me too.
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Old May 12, 2009, 16:19   #9
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I think Eddie's point is different: he's trying to make an identify-by-use system, and it can only work if it "knows" the complete set of ego items in advance. Otherwise, how can you determine that this particular ring, Rfear (-4 stealth) is a Ring of the Dog, and not some other bad stealth ring that comes with a random high resist (rather than just RFear)

He's asking more of a game mechanics question than a player's question.
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Old May 12, 2009, 18:05   #10
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Ah. The difference between a Ring of the Dog and a hypothetical Ring of Noisy High Resist is irrelevant because a transparent rune-based Flavors are no longer needed. Both should show up as "a Ring with two runes" before any identification takes place. You probably shouldn't learn flavors at all except if you know all the runes.
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