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Old November 5, 2009, 17:05   #1
Magnate
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Bugs in r1683 - debate wanted

Hi all,

I came across a number of bugs of varying degrees while playing my HE rogue recently. I've fixed some of the trivial ones (r1684-1686) but would like some views or comments on the rest:

1. I get garbage messages in the message recall window when I drop items in my home - as if the name of the item I dropped is made up of unprintable characters: like "You drop @$^{Y@#%^P". Doesn't seem to happen in any other store. Does anyone else get this?

2. If I am carrying a dagger(+0,+0) and I pick up an unIDd identical dagger, it is auto-IDd and stacks with the existing one. IMO this is a bug, and the stacking shouldn't happen until the new dagger pseudos as average. Anyone care?

3. The object knowledge menus give the squelch status of unknown flavours, thereby giving away that those particular flavours are not worth investigating. IMO this is a bug, and no squelch information should be given for unknown flavours. Anyone agree?

4. Related to this, the object knowledge menus do not include the special artifact flavours under rings and amulets, thereby immediately giving away when a new flavour is an artifact. IMO this is a bug, and the artifact flavours should be included on the knowledge menus. Actually no, I think it would be better not to have any unknown flavours shown at all. Views?

5. My squelch settings are no longer being saved in my savefile. Every game starts up with exactly the same squelch settings, regardless of any changes I made during the previous session. I have tried saving options and dumping pref files, and I cannot preserve my changes to squelch settings. Does anyone else have this problem?

6. The "recall" function in the artifact knowledge menu is borked. It should give you your current knowledge of the artifact, but at the moment it gives you very little (because it uses the make_fake_artifact function and it's not picking up the flags). I intend to correct this to use known_flags, as it should be uncontroversial.

7. The recall of ego items is broken too, because the tval is not set for the dummy item. (It says "it causes your melee attacks to slay undead" for weapons, when it should just say "slays undead".) I intend to correct this too.

8. Cancelling use of ?ID takes turn. Also "you have nothing to identify" takes a turn. IMO neither of these should take a turn - like trying to melee while afraid. Anyone agree? (ISTR this was changed recently for the spell, so that mana is not wasted if you have nothing to ID.)

9. Inscriptions are parsed wrongly in stores (@b5!d!k!v results in "really try...?" when browsing in home, and is totally ignored in others)

10. The faster you are, the longer things take to recharge ... a rod of tOther takes 25 turns to recharge at +0 speed, and 87 turns to recharge at +25 speed. I know this is logical, as it takes the same amount of "dungeon time" to recharge in each case, but IMO this is one of those situations where gameplay should triumph over realism. IMO the recharge times of things should be constant, rather than slow down as you acquire more speed. Anyone else?
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Old November 5, 2009, 17:44   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Hi all,

I came across a number of bugs of varying degrees while playing my HE rogue recently. I've fixed some of the trivial ones (r1684-1686) but would like some views or comments on the rest:

1. I get garbage messages in the message recall window when I drop items in my home - as if the name of the item I dropped is made up of unprintable characters: like "You drop @$^{Y@#%^P". Doesn't seem to happen in any other store. Does anyone else get this?
This is in r1626 also.

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
2. If I am carrying a dagger(+0,+0) and I pick up an unIDd identical dagger, it is auto-IDd and stacks with the existing one. IMO this is a bug, and the stacking shouldn't happen until the new dagger pseudos as average. Anyone care?
I think the motivation for this was that you can tell one item is average by comparing it to another average item that you have. This is really only important in the early game, and I don't think it matters all that much.

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
3. The object knowledge menus give the squelch status of unknown flavours, thereby giving away that those particular flavours are not worth investigating. IMO this is a bug, and no squelch information should be given for unknown flavours. Anyone agree?

4. Related to this, the object knowledge menus do not include the special artifact flavours under rings and amulets, thereby immediately giving away when a new flavour is an artifact. IMO this is a bug, and the artifact flavours should be included on the knowledge menus. Actually no, I think it would be better not to have any unknown flavours shown at all. Views?
These are both bugs, eliminate unknown flavors from the menu *except* for ones with the {tried} pseudo. Or better yet add any flavors to the menu that you've become aware of in the dungeon, even if you haven't picked it up yet.

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8. Cancelling use of ?ID takes turn. Also "you have nothing to identify" takes a turn. IMO neither of these should take a turn - like trying to melee while afraid. Anyone agree? (ISTR this was changed recently for the spell, so that mana is not wasted if you have nothing to ID.)
I agree, however not for the case in which you are using an unknown staff or scroll of ID. Then, I think it should take a turn.

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10. The faster you are, the longer things take to recharge ... a rod of tOther takes 25 turns to recharge at +0 speed, and 87 turns to recharge at +25 speed. I know this is logical, as it takes the same amount of "dungeon time" to recharge in each case, but IMO this is one of those situations where gameplay should triumph over realism. IMO the recharge times of things should be constant, rather than slow down as you acquire more speed. Anyone else?
I prefer the current system. Speed is already enough of a huge benefit.
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Old November 5, 2009, 17:53   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Hi all,

I came across a number of bugs of varying degrees while playing my HE rogue recently. I've fixed some of the trivial ones (r1684-1686) but would like some views or comments on the rest:

1. I get garbage messages in the message recall window when I drop items in my home - as if the name of the item I dropped is made up of unprintable characters: like "You drop @$^{Y@#%^P". Doesn't seem to happen in any other store. Does anyone else get this?
Never Noticed

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
2. If I am carrying a dagger(+0,+0) and I pick up an unIDd identical dagger, it is auto-IDd and stacks with the existing one. IMO this is a bug, and the stacking shouldn't happen until the new dagger pseudos as average. Anyone care?
I dont care too much about a bug, I wouldnt be against a fix of course.

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
3. The object knowledge menus give the squelch status of unknown flavours, thereby giving away that those particular flavours are not worth investigating. IMO this is a bug, and no squelch information should be given for unknown flavours. Anyone agree?
Yes! Even worse it will autosquelch unknown flavours!

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
4. Related to this, the object knowledge menus do not include the special artifact flavours under rings and amulets, thereby immediately giving away when a new flavour is an artifact. IMO this is a bug, and the artifact flavours should be included on the knowledge menus. Actually no, I think it would be better not to have any unknown flavours shown at all. Views?
Do not show unknown flavours, is flavour knowledge passed along between savefiles ?

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5. My squelch settings are no longer being saved in my savefile. Every game starts up with exactly the same squelch settings, regardless of any changes I made during the previous session. I have tried saving options and dumping pref files, and I cannot preserve my changes to squelch settings. Does anyone else have this problem?
Did not encounter this problem on Windows.

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6. The "recall" function in the artifact knowledge menu is borked. It should give you your current knowledge of the artifact, but at the moment it gives you very little (because it uses the make_fake_artifact function and it's not picking up the flags). I intend to correct this to use known_flags, as it should be uncontroversial.
Yes please.

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
7. The recall of ego items is broken too, because the tval is not set for the dummy item. (It says "it causes your melee attacks to slay undead" for weapons, when it should just say "slays undead".) I intend to correct this too.
Hmmm. Yummy opportunity for copy pasted brittle stuff. Please make sure you dont copy paste and change the strings, or just ignore me

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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
8. Cancelling use of ?ID takes turn. Also "you have nothing to identify" takes a turn. IMO neither of these should take a turn - like trying to melee while afraid. Anyone agree? (ISTR this was changed recently for the spell, so that mana is not wasted if you have nothing to ID.)
As the mana is not wasted, so should the turn not be wasted.

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9. Inscriptions are parsed wrongly in stores (@b5!d!k!v results in "really try...?" when browsing in home, and is totally ignored in others)
Its odd, I used to swear by not drop inscriptions, but I am guessing the improved macro stuff makes me no longer drop items, so I am fine. So yeah, should be fixed whenever you find time

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10. The faster you are, the longer things take to recharge ... a rod of tOther takes 25 turns to recharge at +0 speed, and 87 turns to recharge at +25 speed. I know this is logical, as it takes the same amount of "dungeon time" to recharge in each case, but IMO this is one of those situations where gameplay should triumph over realism. IMO the recharge times of things should be constant, rather than slow down as you acquire more speed. Anyone else?
I see you kept the best for last, totally dont agree. I would agree on having ego rods that cannot be destroyed by lightning so that I can carry enough rods so that I dont have to care about recharge times
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Old November 5, 2009, 18:12   #4
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2. If I am carrying a dagger(+0,+0) and I pick up an unIDd identical dagger, it is auto-IDd and stacks with the existing one. IMO this is a bug, and the stacking shouldn't happen until the new dagger pseudos as average. Anyone care?

5. My squelch settings are no longer being saved in my savefile. Every game starts up with exactly the same squelch settings, regardless of any changes I made during the previous session. I have tried saving options and dumping pref files, and I cannot preserve my changes to squelch settings. Does anyone else have this problem?

10. The faster you are, the longer things take to recharge ... a rod of tOther takes 25 turns to recharge at +0 speed, and 87 turns to recharge at +25 speed. I know this is logical, as it takes the same amount of "dungeon time" to recharge in each case, but IMO this is one of those situations where gameplay should triumph over realism. IMO the recharge times of things should be constant, rather than slow down as you acquire more speed. Anyone else?
(2) is about items acting independent of id. Either they stack, or they don't.

(5) That used to be commonly a problem of an existing prf file being read that overwrites the internal structures previously read in from the savefile, and is the reason squelch was removed from prf files. I don't know how it could get you now. Change a squelch setting, save, remove all prf files, restart and check.

(10) The recharge is constant, if you consider 12-24 constant. It takes the same time to recharge in your pack as it would on the ground. It is the idiotic description that makes it appear non-constant. Perhaps a convention of 1 game turn = 1 second could be assumed, and recharge times given in seconds rather than turns, with the understanding that a normal player turn is 10 seconds.
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Old November 5, 2009, 18:15   #5
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Yes! Even worse it will autosquelch unknown flavours!
It is vital to me to be able to squelch unaware flavors. The list of flavors is fixed. So long as unaware artifact flavors are treated the same as other unaware flavors, what is the problem?
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Old November 5, 2009, 18:41   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
(5) That used to be commonly a problem of an existing prf file being read that overwrites the internal structures previously read in from the savefile, and is the reason squelch was removed from prf files. I don't know how it could get you now. Change a squelch setting, save, remove all prf files, restart and check.
Thank you - will do.
Quote:
(10) The recharge is constant, if you consider 12-24 constant. It takes the same time to recharge in your pack as it would on the ground. It is the idiotic description that makes it appear non-constant. Perhaps a convention of 1 game turn = 1 second could be assumed, and recharge times given in seconds rather than turns, with the understanding that a normal player turn is 10 seconds.
I don't have any lack of understanding, I just would prefer recharge times to be a constant number of player turns, not game turns. Looks like I'm outvoted though - I guess I have spent so little time with lots of permanent speed that I haven't got used to taking more turns between recharge times. I daresay it'll cease to bother me eventually.
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Old November 5, 2009, 18:43   #7
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It is vital to me to be able to squelch unaware flavors. The list of flavors is fixed. So long as unaware artifact flavors are treated the same as other unaware flavors, what is the problem?
I think we need to be clear about exactly what we mean by "squelch unaware flavours". I'm talking about flavours that you don't know anything about - e.g. a purple potion. Is it really vital to you to be able to squelch purple potions, before you know what they are??
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Old November 5, 2009, 18:52   #8
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Yes! Even worse it will autosquelch unknown flavours!


Do not show unknown flavours, is flavour knowledge passed along between savefiles ?
If I understand your question correctly, the answer is that flavours are re-randomised at birth, so knowledge of flavours is relevant only to the current character - but yes, that knowledge is in the save file.

I don't think it will squelch unknown flavours - in my experience the unknown items still appear, and then get instantly-squelched when IDd. I don't mind this behaviour at all, it's just having them on the knowledge menu while still unknown that I don't like.

Perhaps this is closer to Eddie's position. I want to have potions of sleep auto squelched, every game. But I don't want to see the flavour of sleep potions shown on the object knowledge menu before I have found and IDd one. I especially do not want to see that flavour on the knowledge menu listed as squelched!

I think I agree with you, that unknown flavours should not appear on the knowledge menus at all, until they are seen in the dungeon. It's going to take a bit of getting to know the knowledge menu code, but that's no bad thing.
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Old November 5, 2009, 19:05   #9
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I think we need to be clear about exactly what we mean by "squelch unaware flavours". I'm talking about flavours that you don't know anything about - e.g. a purple potion. Is it really vital to you to be able to squelch purple potions, before you know what they are??
I don't think you are being clear. Is "you don't know anything" (1) never seen purple in any game, (2) never seen purple this game, (3) seen purple but haven't picked it up, (4) seen purple and tried it with no effect?

I often squelch in (4). I can imagine squelching in case (3) some potion I saw but couldn't reach say on DL 1, and I have squelched enough times I don't know how many in case (2).

If you know the object lists, there comes a time when you know that you are aware of all of the flavors of a particular type you will want for the rest of the game, so you can squelch every unaware flavor of that type. Outlawing that would be a little sad but not tragic.

I'd guess the reason for the knowledge bugs is the old-fashioned mistake of saying artifacts cannot be squelched. You don't want the player to test whether a far away ring is an artifact by going into the menu and squelching the flavor, checking, and unsquelching it. The better fix is to allow artifacts to be squelched.
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Old November 5, 2009, 19:14   #10
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Is it really vital to you to be able to squelch purple potions, before you know what they are??
I guess I didn't answer this. This is about avoiding note taking. If I aim a wand at a monster, and get "the foo is unaffected", I absolutely need to be able to squelch that flavor at that time. If I quaff a potion when suffering sufficient maladies and get no effect, I may want to squelch that flavor. Simply seeing a potion on the floor at DL 1 is reason to be squelching it at DL 99 assuming you have learned !speed.

Really, why shouldn't I be allowed to ignore whatever I want to ignore for whatever reason I have?
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