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View Poll Results: What to do about lost unIDd artifacts when preserve is off?
Say nothing at all 6 25.00%
Note in the character's history but not the knowledge menu 4 16.67%
Show it in both history and knowledge menu 14 58.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 27, 2010, 21:24   #1
Magnate
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If you play with preserve off, do you want to know about artifacts you missed?

The new double comp is the first one to use preserve off for a long time (ever?). Not many people seem to play with preserve off, as evidenced by the fact that I've just found a massive bug. I don't know how far it dates back, but preserve off isn't actually working at all in 3.1.2v2 and indeed trunk. (I haven't committed the fix yet - see why below.)

So, let's say you're playing with preserve off, and you leave a level containing an artifact you don't know about (let's say, ooh, Draebor tlevs you against your will). Do you want to know that you missed that artifact? If so, you want it to show up in your character history ("Failed to find the Phial of Galadriel") and also in the artifact knowledge menu, right?

If you don't want to know, presumably you don't want it appearing in either of those places? Or you'd like to know in your character history, but not in the knowledge menu - that would prevent "spoiling" the artifact for new players who have never found it, yet still note that their character had missed it that game. (This will become quite important when we introduce "artifact memory" for the standard artifact set.)

Let me know what you think ...

EDIT: For those not familiar with preserve, please note that this only applies to artifacts that you never ID. If you ID an artifact and THEN lose it, it will always appear in your knowledge menu and your character history.
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Old June 27, 2010, 22:31   #2
nullfame
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Preserve off is sadistic by definition so I voted "say nothing."

If anything I might like to see it in the history after the game was over, but I don't think that serves any purpose. Of course you didn't find the Phial on dungeon level 32. You're dead.

I switched to preserve on a few years back but I don't recall why. Probably got tired of jelly pits. If "special feeling" only applied to artifacts I might consider it again.
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Old June 27, 2010, 22:51   #3
Nick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullfame View Post
I switched to preserve on a few years back but I don't recall why. Probably got tired of jelly pits. If "special feeling" only applied to artifacts I might consider it again.
This is a good point - having special feelings for jelly pits is just wrong. I think preserve mode could be improved (maybe even to the point where people used it more often) if it was given a more sensible criterion. Maybe artifact or 5 levels OOD unique? Or something?
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Old June 27, 2010, 23:52   #4
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I always used to play with preserve on, and when I recently got back into the game I don't think I realised it was off. I'm resetting it now for my next character.

as for my choice, I'd go for noting it everywhere relevant, then I can kick myself for not fully searching the level or whatever

dave
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Old June 28, 2010, 00:09   #5
Pete Mack
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Artifacts should show up in your history as LOST.
For randarts, they should probably show up in knowledge as well, so you can feel extra stupid about missing that +2 shots pair of boots or whatever.
I have no preferences about standarts. For simplicity, I recommend identifying all lost artifacts. Now that there's no more *ID*, there's really no need for secrecy about what the artifacts do.
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Old June 28, 2010, 08:54   #6
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
This is a good point - having special feelings for jelly pits is just wrong. I think preserve mode could be improved (maybe even to the point where people used it more often) if it was given a more sensible criterion. Maybe artifact or 5 levels OOD unique? Or something?
Pits have been the pain in preserve off mode "special" feeling always. IMO they should not count so high in level feeling (preserve off or on). Especially low level pits (orc, troll, giant, jelly). Graveyards probably should count something (those are very nasty no matter which level you are).
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Old June 28, 2010, 13:49   #7
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Actually, why the beeb does anything else but artifacts give special feeling anyways? That's what "superb" is for, IMHO.

Special = artifact
Superb = non-artifact, pits/microvaults/whatevers enough as currently
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Old June 28, 2010, 14:45   #8
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by ewert View Post
Actually, why the beeb does anything else but artifacts give special feeling anyways? That's what "superb" is for, IMHO.

Special = artifact
Superb = non-artifact, pits/microvaults/whatevers enough as currently
I think that would be because in old days maintainers didn't want to give any certainties and limit info and so that "special" feeling was mean to be "not sure if there is a artifact here, dive at your own risk". "Diving" itself was no option, players were more or less encouraged to explore whole levels anyway. Old angband was way more dangerous than current angband is. Proceeding slowly was pretty much only way to proceed at all (no monster list-windows, no large screen support, no looking at anything that isn't in your LoS, no info about how badly monster is hurt etc.)

Now that current policy is much more open and information is not restricted in any way making diving much easier that one feels a bit odd.
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Old June 28, 2010, 15:14   #9
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Er, I'm pretty sure I remember old Angband (that is, 2.4) having textual descriptions in the monster name indicating how near death they were -- "unhurt", "slightly hurt", "almost dead", etc. Not quite as granular as the healthbar but way more than nothing.
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Old June 28, 2010, 16:31   #10
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Originally Posted by ewert View Post
Actually, why the beeb does anything else but artifacts give special feeling anyways? That's what "superb" is for, IMHO.
This.

I understand not wanting to give away certainties. But if the special feeling is either a artifact or a bunch of mold, what is the point of the special feeling? To me it is not much more different than the normal level feelings (assuming they were not broken, hell even broken) which is why I switched to preserve. I didn't feel I was getting any benefit from the special feeling.

I would just do away with the preserve option and just always have it on. Sorry fyonn. Or just turn it in to a straight difficulty setting that artifacts are only generated once (even unidentified) but artifact generation doesn't cause a "special" feeling.
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