Sangband 1.0.2 Beta

[Derakon]

How about a '/''? It'd nicely oppose the '*' for immunities.

[camlost]

Originally Posted by Bostock

Any word on this one?

Judging from the pounding I'm getting from fire, it looks like maybe the susceptibility exists but you forgot to add a charsheet marker, implemented one but it was buggy, or found it unnecessary. (Bad maintainer! Bad! *wags finger*)

Ask, and it is done. Mixed resistance is shown in yellow, and vulnerability w/o compensation is displayed in red. Vulnerabilities are displayed with '-'. Done in SVN.

[Bostock]

Now it sounds great without reservations!

[NotMorgoth]

Has the rarity of stat potions been increased in any of the latest releases?
Or have the rarity of any other items been changed that could have had a knock-on effect of reducing the number of stat potions?

I'm finding myself getting near to the endgame with stats nowhere near maxed and in some cases less than 18 - though I've been lucky so far and have always found potions for the most important stats (but still vulnerable to nexus stat swaps.)

However, I don't know if this might just be because I am descending faster and doing fewer quests, so spending less time in the optimum levels for finding stat potions which seems to be around DLs 50-65

[camlost]

Originally Posted by NotMorgoth

Has the rarity of stat potions been increased in any of the latest releases?
Or have the rarity of any other items been changed that could have had a knock-on effect of reducing the number of stat potions?

I'm finding myself getting near to the endgame with stats nowhere near maxed and in some cases less than 18 - though I've been lucky so far and have always found potions for the most important stats (but still vulnerable to nexus stat swaps.)

However, I don't know if this might just be because I am descending faster and doing fewer quests, so spending less time in the optimum levels for finding stat potions which seems to be around DLs 50-65

Early dungeon books are more common deep down, and a lot of weapons are less common (mostly in the far depths). I would guess that the drop rate of stat gain potions should be mostly unchanged. A couple of !Augmentation will probably smooth things out, and you should find them at those depths.

This version was intended to speed players up a little, so perhaps stat-gain isn't keeping up in the way it used to.

[camlost]

Any thoughts/comments on the balance (or more probable, lack thereof) of shapechanging and/or its forms?

[NotMorgoth]

I haven't fully explored them yet, and have had much more experience with the nature lore forms than the necromantic, and with non-spellcasters... but first impressions are:

The nature lore forms are better than the necromantic ones; this is compounded by the fact that most races that are good at shapeshifting are better at nature lore than necromancy, so tend towards that side anyway.

Cheetah and serpent forms seem to be the most powerful, and come at relatively low levels; the +6 speed of the cheetah for a melee fighter outweighs most of the benefits of the other forms unless you already have very high speed from some other source, and the serpent's poison resistance is possibly the next most useful benefit of shapechanging - but then it is quite difficult to judge the relative value of the various forms' combat bonuses compared to 'visible' bonuses like speed and resistances.


Dragon form doesn't seem useful enough to justify being so high level - you can only use the breathing ability if you also have infusion to find essences. (Maybe allow characters in dragon form to find essences even without infusion?)

But bear in mind that the above impressions were gained when shapechanges were permanent as soon as you could use them - the cheetah especially would probably be much more balanced if you had to be careful about when to use it rather than walking around with permanent +6 speed as soon as you hit the required skill level.

[Bostock]

I have not yet once "managed" to get a shapechange to have any duration shorter than permanent. If this is not still a bug - I noticed your thinking aloud in one post - then permanence may need some making-harder.

Cheetah form seems better than Hound form to me. Yes, it respects the order in DB5. But Cheetah form seemed better than Hound form to me in DB5 too. :-) OTOH I use 32x32 (nerfs telepathy for me) and play sloppily (ditto), so take me with a grain of salt.

Saying that, I should be quick to note that Bat form seems just fine to me, once again same as it has traditionally. You *can* have some fun with unpenalized missile use, mind you. Holy Troll-bat boulders! But missiles are pretty weak after the opening IMO, so this is only a problem if missiles later get beefed.

I am a little unimpressed with Maia form, though maybe I'd see it differently with a mere double-shapechanger, or if I were less of a resistances junkie... OR if the advertised growth-with-skill effect were a little more pronounced. Not so much the height of the values as their breadth... it seemed the bonuses were limited to just certain of the stats, which took away some of the Cool Factor for me.

I find Mouse a bit lackluster compared to Bat and Bear. There seems to be a theme of requiring NL or BD to get the *really* cool stuff... maybe Mouse and Bear could be switched? Or maybe mouse could be higher-level as a part of the spacing-out-the-shapechanges changes, and get buffed a bit to compensate?

The balance of being-shapechanged vs. not-being-shapechanged seems as good as it always for the old shapechanges - I find myself running a changed form about 80% of the time and unchanged about 20%, which seems balanced considering the opportunity cost of gaining shapechanging ability. Maybe one exception though - it has always seemed a little weird to me balance-wise that shapechanging gives your armor free 100% acidproofing and disenchantproofing. (Not that I have ever hesitated to abuse the hell out of this when convenient.) I can see the realism angle, but... realism and roguelikes...

Frankly, most of the well-balancedness of morphs vs. normal comes from the Devices hit. If Devices (_Speed above all) ever gets the vicious nerf-stick beating it deserves, a second look here may be needed.

One last note. I think there's still room for mixing in some more cool disadvantages for forms. (Somehow my well of cool yet balanced advantages is dry. Besides, players suggesting toys for themselves just looks bad.)
* Aggravation. Successfully tempting players into taking on aggravation is always a good thing. ;-) Maia perhaps? (Aggravating Maia is a ToME2ism.)
* Substandard speed. Crawl's awesomesauce but painfully slow Nagas are really fun and tempting even as a whole race... shouldn't be too hard to cook into a tempting shapechange.
* Incompetence at range.
* Shatter (of-Earthquakes) attack.
* Blood hunger! (Obvious coolness here for Vampires.)

Of course none of these can be too large, as this often leads the to chain of events "give X a big disability - give X munchkininess as compensation - players find workaround - X is munchkiny".

[NotMorgoth]

I thought bat form gave a big reduction to deadliness with missiles? I haven't tried it recently, but definitely remember trying to play a necromancer/archer, flying around in bat form shooting 30+ arrows at a pink naga and doing little or no damage - maybe it's different for throwing boulders which are not affected by deadliness in the same way (AFAIK.)

But anyway, my experience with bat form was that it was mostly useful for escaping, and high Int necromancers could also use it productively with devices. I've also thought it could be good for burglars but never actually given it a try.

[Bostock]

I don't have recent experience with launchers and batform so I'll take you at your word. I do have recent experience with Throwing and batform and can really give bat-boulders my recommendation - on the condition that you have the strength for it. I actually kind of badmouthed it above - as a first shot, at least, it's still useful into the late midgame.