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Old August 26, 2011, 21:35   #1
UglySquirrell
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Stair Vaults

Searching is pretty useless, except in early game. What if you had a chance to find stairs leading to an unconnected level or room? Could be a vault, storeroom, armoury etc. When you left you would go back to the same level. Maybe have a description on the stairs (you see a sign "Danger Do Not Enter" or " there's a well climb down the rope?". These would not show up with the detection spell but if you were lucky or had a high searching skill you'd find them. Could make exploring levels a little more interesting. These stairs could have a different color. Hengband had something like this, but it was a chance to find stairs to hell or something on a certain level. Was fun but you knew where to look and just played those levels till you found them.
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Old August 27, 2011, 05:46   #2
fizzix
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The idea of making areas of the dungeon immune from detection/mapping has been kicking around for a while. I think the hardest part is in the dungeon construction, I haven't thought of a good way of incorporating them.
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Old August 27, 2011, 08:34   #3
Derakon
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I wouldn't mind seeing "unique levels" like some variants have, where the entire level is a vault, more or less. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have these be accessible via special stairs either. I'm not certain I get the benefit to having the stairs be undetectable but findable by searching, though. Just as a random bonus that players with high perception occasionally stumble upon? I don't think anyone's going to spend the time canvassing the dungeon with search on just so they can find these stairs.
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Old August 27, 2011, 08:49   #4
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The idea of making areas of the dungeon immune from detection/mapping has been kicking around for a while.
Immune to detection is a bit harsh. Mapping possibly even worse. I would probably just avoid such areas unless they are highly lucrative GV:s. Still probably avoid them until I can deal with just about anything and can crack it open from safe position (meaning stone to mud -wand or spell).
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Old August 27, 2011, 13:32   #5
UglySquirrell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I wouldn't mind seeing "unique levels" like some variants have, where the entire level is a vault, more or less. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have these be accessible via special stairs either. I'm not certain I get the benefit to having the stairs be undetectable but findable by searching, though. Just as a random bonus that players with high perception occasionally stumble upon? I don't think anyone's going to spend the time canvassing the dungeon with search on just so they can find these stairs.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant the passive searching/perception from class, race skills and items. Rings of searching and stuff like that. Not actively searching.
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Old August 27, 2011, 15:11   #6
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Immune to detection is a bit harsh. Mapping possibly even worse. I would probably just avoid such areas unless they are highly lucrative GV:s. Still probably avoid them until I can deal with just about anything and can crack it open from safe position (meaning stone to mud -wand or spell).
My thinking would be that they would be immune from mapping, stair/door detection and item detection, but not immune from monster detection (that would be the clue that there's an area of the dungeon you haven't seen yet.) There would be some reward inside that is less than a vault but greater than a special room.

It's possible that a prerequisite for this is having monsters tied to a home location, so they don't spill out and show you the way in.
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Old August 27, 2011, 18:03   #7
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
My thinking would be that they would be immune from mapping, stair/door detection and item detection, but not immune from monster detection (that would be the clue that there's an area of the dungeon you haven't seen yet.) There would be some reward inside that is less than a vault but greater than a special room.
Still probably wouldn't go there if I there would be any danger. Seeing items is a motive to go there, if you remove that motive then there is no reason to go there.

One thing that makes GV:s so tempting is to see the items inside them. If we change the look-command like it was in old days so that you don't know the item flavor before you actually see it, then showing items would become a temptation.

If you show both items and monsters, but not the map, then I don't know, it then depends of what I see would I go there.

I have nothing against making some areas immune to clairvoyance though. That is currently a bit too powerful, mainly because you can see all the items in the dungeon immediately after using it. No wizard-light before you are inside the area.
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Old August 27, 2011, 19:22   #8
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Still probably wouldn't go there if I there would be any danger. Seeing items is a motive to go there, if you remove that motive then there is no reason to go there.
I think it's hard to make these types of regions interesting to a veteran player but not unbalancing. It's a tough call. However, I disagree in the 'no reason to go there.' If it's clear that hidden sections will have OoD items in it, then there seems to be a somewhat compelling reason to visit them. Maybe not enough for you, but surely for some players.
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Old August 27, 2011, 19:41   #9
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I think it's hard to make these types of regions interesting to a veteran player but not unbalancing. It's a tough call. However, I disagree in the 'no reason to go there.' If it's clear that hidden sections will have OoD items in it, then there seems to be a somewhat compelling reason to visit them. Maybe not enough for you, but surely for some players.
I agree. Some people temptation of unknown is irresistible. I have a benefit of playing so long that I don't see reason to go there because I know I can get whatever there might be elsewhere.

Main question in this is not is it unbalancing, but is it worth doing. Is it any better than status quo? A bit like adding an item. Item might be reasonable and all that, but is the game any better if it exist or not. Adding it might just have made everything else a bit more rare, and that's all.

Angband has two major problems with gameplay 1) you can always choose avoiding the thing. 2) there is no time restriction. These are a good things, but it also makes making game harder more difficult. Adding or tweaking monsters does not matter. Adding vaults does not matter. Adding pretty much anything does not matter. Only things that do matter are global changes that there are no avoidance. Detection restriction does not actually make game more difficult unless it is global, affecting entire dungeon.
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