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Old September 28, 2011, 17:09   #11
fizzix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I would like to see your device skill multiplier added to the item description for wands, staves, etc. It's not hard to calculate, but it changes depending on the item -- the multpilier is 1 + (your device skill - object level) / 100. Device skill is given as a number on your character sheet, so you don't need to calculate that (it derives from INT, class, and race though); the object level is in object.txt.
IMO this would be a useful improvement. It may not be too hard to add, I'll look into it. The question is what is a more useful display?

option 1: "...a lightning bolt that does 6d6 * 1.35 damage"

option 2: "...a lightning bolt that does an average damage of 28.35"

option 3: "...a 6d6 lightning bolt that does adjusted average damage of 28.35"
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Old September 28, 2011, 17:16   #12
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Currently, the damage information for devices is hardcoded into the description string for the device (IIRC). So it'd probably be easiest to have a separate line that says "Your damage multiplier for this device is 1.35".

Barring that, I'd go with the first option, to make it clear how much of the damage is from the device and how much is from the user being awesome with the device.
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Old September 28, 2011, 17:46   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Currently, the damage information for devices is hardcoded into the description string for the device (IIRC). So it'd probably be easiest to have a separate line that says "Your damage multiplier for this device is 1.35".

Barring that, I'd go with the first option, to make it clear how much of the damage is from the device and how much is from the user being awesome with the device.
but the problem is that it then requires the player to do a calculation on their own, which is a bit of a pain. It's certainly better than nothing, but far from ideal.

edit: you're correct, the descriptions are hardcoded in. That does indeed make things difficult...
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Old September 28, 2011, 18:21   #14
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making it say like ~

You hit the Floating eye (2.3)

The Floating eye gazes at you (-2)

get the number from the hit and add like that ok ,
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Old September 28, 2011, 18:26   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Currently, the damage information for devices is hardcoded into the description string for the device (IIRC). So it'd probably be easiest to have a separate line that says "Your damage multiplier for this device is 1.35".

Barring that, I'd go with the first option, to make it clear how much of the damage is from the device and how much is from the user being awesome with the device.
but the problem is that it then requires the player to do a calculation on their own, which is a bit of a pain. It's certainly better than nothing, but far from ideal.
How about amending the hard-coded line to make it clear that it's not a flat damage rate, and then adding an additional line to explain the multiplier? Something like this:

Code:
When aimed, it fires a lightning bolt with minimum damage 6d6.
Your chance of success is 90%

With the 1.35 multiplier from your magic device skill your average damage with this device is 28.35.
Maybe even some lines the equivalent of the "with +1 STR/DEX you would get X blows" you get on weapons to show what stat boosts would increase the multiplier, if that's feasible? I have to admit how most of the skills work is entirely opaque to me. (It's entirely news to me that there's a damage multiplier! I thought device skill was just to do with fail rate.)

In fact, it would be great if there was a skills page in the knowledge menu or somewhere showing what stats you need to boost to get an increase, e.g. "With +1 WIS you would get a saving throw of X". Everything I understand about skills I've picked up from reading this forum, since the in-game help says nothing about how they're calculated or what actions they influence.
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Old September 28, 2011, 23:22   #16
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Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
In fact, it would be great if there was a skills page in the knowledge menu or somewhere showing what stats you need to boost to get an increase, e.g. "With +1 WIS you would get a saving throw of X". Everything I understand about skills I've picked up from reading this forum, since the in-game help says nothing about how they're calculated or what actions they influence.
I haven't had too much time to look at it (or even to hack on Angband much at all lately). I imagine though that there's a difficulty with wands and rods in that some of them do no damage at all. In fact, this is probably why everything was hard coded in the first place.

However, things have changed for the better with the list_spell_effects.h or whatever it's called. The proper course of action is to rip out the hardcoded stuff and put in context appropriate messages. So you get the message for damage causing items and other ones give something like, "this weapon causes no damage to monsters"
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Old September 29, 2011, 00:28   #17
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I'm not sure it'd ever be canonical, but I think it's something that's useful to have, and I think it helps players who don't want to read spoilers, ask for advice on oook, or source dive, but who want to get a better feel for e.g. damage calculation.
That's me you're talking about. I'd like to see the damage numbers (as well as my % chance to hit a given monster. Is that in V yet?). I've no idea what the multiplier for a critical hit is, and like so many things, if you told me I'd forget it in a couple of days.

I'm just curious. I'd like to see numbers in addition to the text descriptions. I don't see any (real) advantage to having this information. Right now all I know is the average damage from the Inspect screen, and that words like "smite" and "hack" are good, but much like level feelings, I've no idea how good. Sure, I look at the asterisks, but that scale changes with each monster... then I have to Inspect said monsters HP's, and then try to recall how many *'s he had previous to that hit. What's more disturbing is that I frequently fail to notice when monsters put up particularly large damage numbers against me. Maybe the player health needs to be represented by *'s too. It makes just as much sense as monster *'s. Being the occupant of your own body doesn't endow you with the knowledge of the exact second that the poison you drank a while back is going to kill you. You just have a general sense of how healthy you are.

I find it kind of ironic that no one really objects to source diving or spoiler use or the player knowing all the formulas to (pretty much) calculate these numbers, but objects to the game, having already calculated them, showing them to you.

Just make it an option (even a cheat option if you must).

EDIT: having re-read my post, here's another unacceptable idea. Ditch the wordy level feeling and just give me a number from 1 to 10.
"On a scale of 1 to 10, you feel this level is a 6." This, I can remember.
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Old September 29, 2011, 01:14   #18
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Buzzkill: Most of the stuff you allude to is in V, excepting the precise amount of damage you do per hit.

You see the probability you have to hit when looking at a monster.

I believe the average damage takes into account critical hits (possible because of the way its calculated, although this might change.)

There already is an easy way to see how much damage you are taking in combat, by either looking at your HP, or setting the option to have the color of @ change with HP level (very useful, IMO). Do you really think that putting the numbers for each blow will help significantly in this?
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Old September 29, 2011, 01:39   #19
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Buzzkill: Most of the stuff you allude to is in V, excepting the precise amount of damage you do per hit.
Precise damage numbers, as if I were rolling a die and calculating it myself, this is what I want. This probably stems from my extensive D&D (and board game) background.

Quote:
You see the probability you have to hit when looking at a monster.
Glad to hear it, I vaguely remember it being discussed. I don't play much V. Will, Nick, please nab this. I don't know what an "armour rating of 35" really means.

Quote:
I believe the average damage takes into account critical hits (possible because of the way its calculated, although this might change.)
Yeah, which means that with most hits I'm putting out lower than average damage, which I'm occasionally compensated for by a nice critical hit. Wouldn't this (avg dam) be dependent upon your opponents AC (more or less criticals)? Why can't we just see the numbers?

Quote:
There already is an easy way to see how much damage you are taking in combat, by either looking at your HP, or setting the option to have the color of @ change with HP level (very useful, IMO). Do you really think that putting the numbers for each blow will help significantly in this?
I play with tiles, so I don't get the @ or his various colors. I have to look from the 'action' to the status area to see my HP. Something I tend to overlook when I'm in a fairly casual battle, or more afraid of status effects than HP damage (which then goes unnoticed). I also dislike the low-hit point emergency stop as I could never find a threshold that worked well for me.

I get that this problem is just my inattention and really, this is the least of my concerns. *'s for player health probably wouldn't help much. I do read the messages though, and I'd like to think that I'd notice those big numbers scrolling across the top of the screen.

As I said previously, I don't see what advantage showing the numbers bestows upon the player, so why not do it? Is it just a matter of flavor? Are we enforcing flavor? Make it an optin.
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Old September 29, 2011, 02:22   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
There already is an easy way to see how much damage you are taking in combat, by either looking at your HP, or setting the option to have the color of @ change with HP level (very useful, IMO). Do you really think that putting the numbers for each blow will help significantly in this?
I think it would make a huge difference. In fact, I think if I had seen numbers (instead of having vague recollections about before/after HP) I would have learned much faster how variable the damage reduction from nether resist is.

I agree that much of the information is derivable, but doing the derivation yourself is error-prone, time consuming, annoying, and sometimes less obvious.

There is one camp that thinks that the internal rules of games should be opaque (and then players will usually try to reverse engineer them) and another school that says players should be told the rules up front. I can respect the former view which is why I'd make this an option, but if you believe the latter then I think providing numbers for things like damage (or how likely you are/were to make a save, or whatever) is useful, as opposed to showing people a search score with no basis for understanding what it means.
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