My latest dumb idea

Antoine · December 17, 2011, 20:52

Angband has got lots of stuff in it. Sometimes all that stuff seems to get in the way of the core elements (which, for me, are grinding under the constant risk of instadeath).

Imagine a variant with Less Stuff.

- No more than 4 classes
- No more than 50 types of non-unique monster
- No more than 50 uniques
- No more than 30 types of wearable equipment
- No more than 10 ego types
- No more than 30 artifacts
- No more than 20 types of consumables
- No more than 10 kinds of traps
- No more than 10 kinds of vaults.

I'd envisage that the game would take about as long to complete as modern Vanilla, with the end bosses being Sauron and Morgoth, and would have (say) 30 character levels and 50 dungeon levels.

I see it as being hard, with key consumables (including means of detection, escape and healing) being limited, some resistance holes being very hard to plug given the limited equipment selection, some monsters being very hard to defeat in-depth, and the risk of instadeath always awaiting the incautious player.

I also envisage the game being balanced for small screensize (say 30x25 or thereabouts) so you can play it with big juicy 32x32 tiles. This would mean smaller levels with smaller rooms.

Finally I'd like to see the number of commands reduced to no more than 10.

Does anyone think this is a non-stupid idea?

Would anyone be interested in working on it?

A.

thapper · December 17, 2011, 21:16

I see it as an excellent idea!

As for working on it, my coding skills are non-existent...

Malak Darkhunter · December 17, 2011, 21:18

Honestly it almost sounds lik moria, witch I like

sometimes less is more, I like the idea of a more simplified version, so I think you have an interesting idea, I was sort of wanting to play a quicker version if the game, I think you can keep the action going with the right balance. So sure, I'm not really a coder but I would help in some way if possible.

dzhang · December 17, 2011, 21:22

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the idea. If anything, I always like more choices and variety, and combinatorial diversity. What you're proposing sounds to me like D&D 4e...

HallucinationMushroom · December 17, 2011, 21:27

I'm probably way off target (as usual), but this sounds like a bridge between Moria and Angband. A throwback -- a nod to the early days, but with cherry picked extras from Angband included. Like color! Moria with color, occasional vaults, better stocked stores, more than 2 uniques and a few artifacts, some vaults -- is an intriguing idea to me, at least.

Edit: lol, Malak beat me to the Moria reference.

Djabanete · December 17, 2011, 21:38

It sounds terrific. I'm not entirely sold on the big tiles but in general I like your thinking. However, I think such a minimalist design would benefit from shorter game time than Vanilla and razor-sharp balance design.

IMO, instead of 4 classes, having 6 or so spell realms would be better, with each player choosing 2 realms at the start.

As far as working on it... well, I'd playtest it

And I enjoy theorycrafting, I'm not sure whether that counts as "working."

"10 egos" --- you mean total, or per equipment slot? 10 total means 1 or 2 per slot, which seems pretty bland. I'm guessing actually you meant for weapons, with smaller numbers for other slots.

I always thought a cool idea for a 4-class system would be the following: 6 or so spell realms, 4 classes. Warrior: weapon fighter. Warrior-mage: second-tier weapon fighter with one magic realm. Mage: Caster with 2 magic realms. High-Mage: expert caster in 1 realm.

Also I always thought it would be cool if instead of having lots of different kinds of each monster, it was dialed back to basic monster types. "Lich". "Hydra". "Troll". "Beholder". "Nazgul". etc etc.

50 monsters isn't much. Omissions of the top of my head are all forms of insects and jellies. Also drolems and golems. And snakes. And Mind Flayers.

Code:

Dragon
Behemoth
Titan
Lich
Vampire

Nazgul
Cyclops
Shambling Mound
Xorn
Gryphon

Nightmare
Mummy
Giant Rat
Kobold
Goblin

Salamander
Umber Hulk
Invisible Stalker
Barrow Wight
Hobgoblin

Orc
Unicorn
Ent
Winged Horror
Angel

Balrog
Gelugon
Bile Demon
Hezrou
Lemure

Giant
Troll
Beholder
Quylthulg
Djinn

Yeek
Zombie
Animated Skeleton
Mimic
Sorceror

Mystic
Death Knight
Enchantress
Ghoul
Wyvern

Hydra
Catoblepas
Hellhound
Wolf
Tiger

20 consumables?

Code:

Potions:

Healing (small heal)
Extra Healing (big heal)
Curing (small heal + status issues)
Life (full heal + status issues)
Rejuvenation (big heal + big mana heal)

Energy (full mana heal)
Berserk Strength (small heal + berserk)
Resistance (temporary resistance)
Restoration (restore all stats)
Detonations (hand grenade)


Scrolls:

Phase Door (short teleport)
Teleportation (long teleport)
Enchant Weapon (both hit and dam)
Enchant Armor
Genocide

Identify
Detect Treasure (money + items)
Magic Mapping
Remove Curse
Ammunition (creates ammo for whatever launcher you're equipping)

10 traps

Code:

Traps:

Pit
Poison arrow trap
Teleport trap
Trap door
Explosive rune

Giant Pendulum Blade trap
Giant Circular Saw trap
Summon monster trap
Alarm (haste monsters in LOS + aggravate)
Tiger cage trap (Tiger cage drops from ceiling, breaks on your head, tiger lands next to you)

Malak Darkhunter · December 17, 2011, 22:18

I've always liked the idea of removing "hordes" of monsters and monster pits and replacing that with smaller but stronger escorts.
My vote for classes would be a simpler version:
Fighter, Mage, priest, assassin, swordmage, champion

The swordmage being the multiclass fighter Mage, and the champion being the fighter/priest

ghengiz · December 17, 2011, 22:22

about the original idea: great one!

+1 to Djabanete's suggestions on shorter game time and basic monster names, although perhaps at most two or three subclasses sounds fine (e.g. cold/fire/lightning breathing dragons)

proposed classes: warrior, mage, rogue, priest (more or less like the first diablo)

my programming skills are not that much, but I'd love to playtest it

Antoine · December 17, 2011, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzhang

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the idea. If anything, I always like more choices and variety, and combinatorial diversity. What you're proposing sounds to me like D&D 4e...

Fair enough - you seem more like a Chengband guy - by the way I always read your ladder dumps with interest.

A.

Therem Harth · December 18, 2011, 00:02

Dislike. But I'm a ToME 2 fan so it follows logically. :P

Specifically though, I like:
- ASCII graphics
- Lots of monsters
- Lots of classes
- Lots Of Stuff in general
- Games that are never a repeat of the last one

OTOH, in your idea I like:
- Shallower dungeon. 100 levels of one mostly unthemed dungeon is a tad excessive IMO.
- Pruning of "generalist" classes, e.g. Paladin. But this is because I'd prefer lots of unique classes with their own twists.

As for difficulty, it's a mixed bag. I don't like boredom, but I honestly don't like Angband's instadeath either, as restarting again and again gets boring quickly. (But having Lots Of Stuff makes restarting less of a bore as well.) IMO though one of the key things is to give the player occasional, random rewards, but not make them too frequent - this is part of the reason gambling is addictive, and it applies to Angband too.

December 17, 2011, 20:52	#1
Antoine Ironband/Quickband Maintainer Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,009	My latest dumb idea Angband has got lots of stuff in it. Sometimes all that stuff seems to get in the way of the core elements (which, for me, are grinding under the constant risk of instadeath). Imagine a variant with Less Stuff. - No more than 4 classes - No more than 50 types of non-unique monster - No more than 50 uniques - No more than 30 types of wearable equipment - No more than 10 ego types - No more than 30 artifacts - No more than 20 types of consumables - No more than 10 kinds of traps - No more than 10 kinds of vaults. I'd envisage that the game would take about as long to complete as modern Vanilla, with the end bosses being Sauron and Morgoth, and would have (say) 30 character levels and 50 dungeon levels. I see it as being hard, with key consumables (including means of detection, escape and healing) being limited, some resistance holes being very hard to plug given the limited equipment selection, some monsters being very hard to defeat in-depth, and the risk of instadeath always awaiting the incautious player. I also envisage the game being balanced for small screensize (say 30x25 or thereabouts) so you can play it with big juicy 32x32 tiles. This would mean smaller levels with smaller rooms. Finally I'd like to see the number of commands reduced to no more than 10. Does anyone think this is a non-stupid idea? Would anyone be interested in working on it? A. __________________ Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

December 17, 2011, 21:27	#5
HallucinationMushroom Knight Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Indiana, U.S.A. Age: 44 Posts: 784	I'm probably way off target (as usual), but this sounds like a bridge between Moria and Angband. A throwback -- a nod to the early days, but with cherry picked extras from Angband included. Like color! Moria with color, occasional vaults, better stocked stores, more than 2 uniques and a few artifacts, some vaults -- is an intriguing idea to me, at least. Edit: lol, Malak beat me to the Moria reference. __________________ You are on something strange

December 17, 2011, 21:38	#6
Djabanete Knight Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 576	It sounds terrific. I'm not entirely sold on the big tiles but in general I like your thinking. However, I think such a minimalist design would benefit from shorter game time than Vanilla and razor-sharp balance design. IMO, instead of 4 classes, having 6 or so spell realms would be better, with each player choosing 2 realms at the start. As far as working on it... well, I'd playtest it And I enjoy theorycrafting, I'm not sure whether that counts as "working." "10 egos" --- you mean total, or per equipment slot? 10 total means 1 or 2 per slot, which seems pretty bland. I'm guessing actually you meant for weapons, with smaller numbers for other slots. I always thought a cool idea for a 4-class system would be the following: 6 or so spell realms, 4 classes. Warrior: weapon fighter. Warrior-mage: second-tier weapon fighter with one magic realm. Mage: Caster with 2 magic realms. High-Mage: expert caster in 1 realm. Also I always thought it would be cool if instead of having lots of different kinds of each monster, it was dialed back to basic monster types. "Lich". "Hydra". "Troll". "Beholder". "Nazgul". etc etc. 50 monsters isn't much. Omissions of the top of my head are all forms of insects and jellies. Also drolems and golems. And snakes. And Mind Flayers. Code: Dragon Behemoth Titan Lich Vampire Nazgul Cyclops Shambling Mound Xorn Gryphon Nightmare Mummy Giant Rat Kobold Goblin Salamander Umber Hulk Invisible Stalker Barrow Wight Hobgoblin Orc Unicorn Ent Winged Horror Angel Balrog Gelugon Bile Demon Hezrou Lemure Giant Troll Beholder Quylthulg Djinn Yeek Zombie Animated Skeleton Mimic Sorceror Mystic Death Knight Enchantress Ghoul Wyvern Hydra Catoblepas Hellhound Wolf Tiger 20 consumables? Code: Potions: Healing (small heal) Extra Healing (big heal) Curing (small heal + status issues) Life (full heal + status issues) Rejuvenation (big heal + big mana heal) Energy (full mana heal) Berserk Strength (small heal + berserk) Resistance (temporary resistance) Restoration (restore all stats) Detonations (hand grenade) Scrolls: Phase Door (short teleport) Teleportation (long teleport) Enchant Weapon (both hit and dam) Enchant Armor Genocide Identify Detect Treasure (money + items) Magic Mapping Remove Curse Ammunition (creates ammo for whatever launcher you're equipping) 10 traps Code: Traps: Pit Poison arrow trap Teleport trap Trap door Explosive rune Giant Pendulum Blade trap Giant Circular Saw trap Summon monster trap Alarm (haste monsters in LOS + aggravate) Tiger cage trap (Tiger cage drops from ceiling, breaks on your head, tiger lands next to you) Last edited by Djabanete; December 17, 2011 at 22:52.

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December 17, 2011, 21:16	#2
thapper Adept Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 168	I see it as an excellent idea! As for working on it, my coding skills are non-existent...

December 17, 2011, 21:18	#3
Malak Darkhunter Knight Join Date: May 2007 Location: US Age: 45 Posts: 730	Honestly it almost sounds lik moria, witch I like sometimes less is more, I like the idea of a more simplified version, so I think you have an interesting idea, I was sort of wanting to play a quicker version if the game, I think you can keep the action going with the right balance. So sure, I'm not really a coder but I would help in some way if possible.

December 17, 2011, 21:22	#4
dzhang Scout Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 47	Honestly, I'm not a fan of the idea. If anything, I always like more choices and variety, and combinatorial diversity. What you're proposing sounds to me like D&D 4e...

December 17, 2011, 22:18	#7
Malak Darkhunter Knight Join Date: May 2007 Location: US Age: 45 Posts: 730	I've always liked the idea of removing "hordes" of monsters and monster pits and replacing that with smaller but stronger escorts. My vote for classes would be a simpler version: Fighter, Mage, priest, assassin, swordmage, champion The swordmage being the multiclass fighter Mage, and the champion being the fighter/priest

December 17, 2011, 22:22	#8
ghengiz Adept Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Roaming in Terry Pratchett's Discworld Posts: 178	about the original idea: great one! +1 to Djabanete's suggestions on shorter game time and basic monster names, although perhaps at most two or three subclasses sounds fine (e.g. cold/fire/lightning breathing dragons) proposed classes: warrior, mage, rogue, priest (more or less like the first diablo) my programming skills are not that much, but I'd love to playtest it

December 18, 2011, 00:02	#10
Therem Harth Knight Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 926	Dislike. But I'm a ToME 2 fan so it follows logically. :P Specifically though, I like: - ASCII graphics - Lots of monsters - Lots of classes - Lots Of Stuff in general - Games that are never a repeat of the last one OTOH, in your idea I like: - Shallower dungeon. 100 levels of one mostly unthemed dungeon is a tad excessive IMO. - Pruning of "generalist" classes, e.g. Paladin. But this is because I'd prefer lots of unique classes with their own twists. As for difficulty, it's a mixed bag. I don't like boredom, but I honestly don't like Angband's instadeath either, as restarting again and again gets boring quickly. (But having Lots Of Stuff makes restarting less of a bore as well.) IMO though one of the key things is to give the player occasional, random rewards, but not make them too frequent - this is part of the reason gambling is addictive, and it applies to Angband too.

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