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Old April 1, 2012, 12:23   #21
Djabanete
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My 2c ... I like my dungeons with walls, floors, and doors. There are very few terrain features that I don't find annoying and furniture isn't one of them.
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Old April 1, 2012, 19:54   #22
Mikko Lehtinen
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Yeah, people tend to get very accustomed to a certain dungeon style. That's one of the reasons why some people stick with Angband all their lives and never seriously try any other roguelikes.

Vanilla should probably stick to a more bare bones dungeon. Unfortunately that makes themed rooms much less interesting (IMO). Ey had minimally themed rooms with monsters, items, and text descriptions for a long time, and I never really liked them. You need something extra to make the theme feel real. If not furniture, then something else, but what?

For me, the key is that the room theme should have some actual game effects to feel real. (EDIT: I think DaJ might have some ideas worth stealing?)
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Old April 2, 2012, 15:14   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
Y

For me, the key is that the room theme should have some actual game effects to feel real. (EDIT: I think DaJ might have some ideas worth stealing?)
You might also look at ADOM, which has a fairly long list of "theme messages" that pop up when you enter certain rooms. Some of them have game effects, as well, even as far as modifying stats...
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Old April 2, 2012, 16:42   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
Vanilla should probably stick to a more bare bones dungeon. Unfortunately that makes themed rooms much less interesting (IMO). Ey had minimally themed rooms with monsters, items, and text descriptions for a long time, and I never really liked them. You need something extra to make the theme feel real. If not furniture, then something else, but what?

For me, the key is that the room theme should have some actual game effects to feel real. (EDIT: I think DaJ might have some ideas worth stealing?)
In the last released version of DaJAngband, there are no themed rooms (just special room designs, vaults, & themed levels). In the next release there will be some sort of themed rooms in the form of room runes which have various effects on magic, terrain, etc. I tested them to make sure the effects work, but I don't know yet how much effect they'll actually have on gameplay.
It seems to me that if someone doesn't like the effects of the rune they can just lure the monster they want to kill out of the room. I'm still trying to figure out a solution to that...
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Old April 2, 2012, 17:57   #25
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I tested them to make sure the effects work, but I don't know yet how much effect they'll actually have on gameplay.
It seems to me that if someone doesn't like the effects of the rune they can just lure the monster they want to kill out of the room. I'm still trying to figure out a solution to that...
This is really interesting to me. Maybe you could call the runes Obelisks or some such, and let them have effect in a really large radius? For example: all kobolds within 70 squares of a Kobold Totem gain a speed bonus. (I've been tinkering with this idea for Fay.)
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Old April 2, 2012, 17:58   #26
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Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
You might also look at ADOM, which has a fairly long list of "theme messages" that pop up when you enter certain rooms. Some of them have game effects, as well, even as far as modifying stats...
Interesting! I'll google for a spoiler.
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Old April 2, 2012, 19:11   #27
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Ok, so I've been advocating having tactically interesting terrain features in Vanilla rooms. Well, the big secret is that they don't work!

The player will always want to fight monsters in corridors. No matter how good the beneficial tactical features in rooms are, the pull of the corridors is almost always stronger.

I tried tactically beneficial furniture, and I playtested a lot. Finally I did manage to make higher ground (tables and platforms) interesting -- by radically changing the combat rules to make combat in open space less dangerous. That's not something that will happen in Vanilla.

I also had magic circles that had various benefits if you were fighting in them, like protection from undead and demons. After countless hours of playtesting I still have the circles, but their abilities have mostly changed from tactical benefits to strategic, larger scale effects -- like restoring your stats, or teleporting you back from anywhere on the level when you are near death. I just never used the tactical benefits that required you to fight in the circle.
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Old April 2, 2012, 20:28   #28
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
Ok, so I've been advocating having tactically interesting terrain features in Vanilla rooms. Well, the big secret is that they don't work!

The player will always want to fight monsters in corridors. No matter how good the beneficial tactical features in rooms are, the pull of the corridors is almost always stronger.
Really? I often fight just inside a room, particularly when trying to draw a pack of hounds or other monster groups where you want to break line of sight.

On the flipside, if a room had a negative effect, then you could try to lure monsters into and through the room, and then engage them from just outside the room in the corridor.

I guess you are talking about discrete features in rooms. If the whole room has some sort of magic field, I think it is possible to end up with some interesting tactical decisions.
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Old April 2, 2012, 21:13   #29
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I guess you are talking about discrete features in rooms.
Correct. Features that you need to stand on don't usually seem to work.

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If the whole room has some sort of magic field, I think it is possible to end up with some interesting tactical decisions.
Maybe! Let's see what DaJ playtests reveal.

I do have somewhat comparable features that affect the whole room, in a way: warding runes in walls that shoot out a straight line and affect both the player and monsters. With good enough skills you can turn them on or off. They haven't been in the development version for very long but they do seem to be working like intended. I've had some very enjoyable fights in these rooms.

On the other hand, they wouldn't work as well without my combat changes... Namely, the player can attack two monsters in melee at the same time.

Last edited by Mikko Lehtinen; April 2, 2012 at 21:20.
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Old April 2, 2012, 22:03   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will_asher View Post
It seems to me that if someone doesn't like the effects of the rune they can just lure the monster they want to kill out of the room. I'm still trying to figure out a solution to that...
You could go the Zelda route of barricading the doors until the player defeats the monsters... of course, that seems rather arbitrary and un-Angbandish, but if it was done only sparingly...

edit: or the monsters could be programmed to never leave, so if the player wants to flee, he can, but he won't get the XP for killing the monsters!
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