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Old March 21, 2008, 19:00   #1
MKula
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[Feature Request] Traps and Double Negatives

Ok, a couple more reasonably simple feature requests here:

1) The wording for Birth Options g), h) and i) is kinda confusing, because they're double negatives Just for clarity I'd rewrite them, and default them to the opposite, for example:
Don't preserve artifacts when leaving level : No
would become
Preserve artifacts when leaving level : Yes
As far as I can tell, those three are the only confusing ones. So... yeah.

2) More significantly, I would like to request removing traps entirely from DL1. It's happened to me more than once (and I've seen it with others as well), where you roll a new @, take a few steps, fall into a spiked pit (or onto a summoning square, or enveloped in flames, etc) and you're dead.
Some deaths are from greed, some deaths are from stupidity, but I don't think this is one of them. The only real game play effect this would have is prevent you from having to reroll again after something that wasn't really your fault. This only really matters if you're CL1 anyway, because by the time you get to CL2, I don't think there are any DL1 traps that can kill a full health @ anyway.

Comments?
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Old March 21, 2008, 19:11   #2
CunningGabe
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I'd support both changes. I'm guessing there's some historical reason that those options are expressed the way they are, but it would certainly be clearer if they were expressed without the double negatives.
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Old March 21, 2008, 19:13   #3
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*signed*
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Old March 21, 2008, 19:53   #4
Pete Mack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I'd support both changes. I'm guessing there's some historical reason that those options are expressed the way they are, but it would certainly be clearer if they were expressed without the double negatives.
I presume the reason is that the 'yes' option is generally a little tougher than 'no.' In each case, you are imposing a restriction.
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Old March 21, 2008, 20:23   #5
Bandobras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKula View Post
2) More significantly, I would like to request removing traps entirely from DL1.
This is what TOME does, IIRC.

What Un does, inspired by potion effects in S is that you can't die from a trap, a potion, a mushroom, etc., if you are at more than HP/2 health. You are left at 1 HP instead.

(BTW, this is only one step from allowing negative HP from any source, for one or two player turns without death, as in "you fall to the ground, dying", but teleport level, desctruction and mass genocide have to be toned down for that to make sense, e.g. with 1 turn delay)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKula View Post
It's happened to me more than once (and I've seen it with others as well), where you roll a new @, take a few steps, fall into a spiked pit (or onto a summoning square, or enveloped in flames, etc) and you're dead.
Some deaths are from greed, some deaths are from stupidity, but I don't think this is one of them. The only real game play effect this would have is prevent you from having to reroll again after something that wasn't really your fault. This only really matters if you're CL1 anyway, because by the time you get to CL2, I don't think there are any DL1 traps that can kill a full health @ anyway.
Yes, I think this is outrageous. But even more outrageous is that the same sometimes happens for mid-level characters, when you already invested a lot of time and effort. Even with traps, which makes trap detection mandatory even for barbarian warriors and makes searching and perception useless instantly.
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Old March 21, 2008, 20:55   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKula View Post
Ok, a couple more reasonably simple feature requests here:


2) More significantly, I would like to request removing traps entirely from DL1. It's happened to me more than once (and I've seen it with others as well), where you roll a new @, take a few steps, fall into a spiked pit (or onto a summoning square, or enveloped in flames, etc) and you're dead.
Some deaths are from greed, some deaths are from stupidity, but I don't think this is one of them. The only real game play effect this would have is prevent you from having to reroll again after something that wasn't really your fault. This only really matters if you're CL1 anyway, because by the time you get to CL2, I don't think there are any DL1 traps that can kill a full health @ anyway.

Comments?
I strongly disagree with this suggestion. Death to traps by misadventure is already nearly avoidable as the game stands. Yes, there's always a chance of stumbling on a trap within the first few moves, but it almost never happens (frequency ~ 1% of all games.) What traps on the first few levels do is encourage you to get your ass down to dl 5 or below, where there are plenty of Rods of Trap Detection. You can be past the danger level within a few hundred moves of the start of the game. (cl 5 before 1000 player turns is eminently doable.)
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Old March 21, 2008, 21:14   #7
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
What traps on the first few levels do is encourage you to get your ass down to dl 5 or below, where there are plenty of Rods of Trap Detection. You can be past the danger level within a few hundred moves of the start of the game. (cl 5 before 1000 player turns is eminently doable.)
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with your disagreement. You're assuming a player wants to bee-line for DL5 ASAP. What if they don't? Yeah, a agree that this sort of event happens <1% of the time, but that's still more often than never.
My reasoning for this suggestion was to think "would there be any adverse effect from this implementation?". My effective answer is "no"; all this would do is prevent pointless deaths at DL1 (since at DL2+ traps would behave as they do now).

An alternative suggestion would be to scale trap creation the same way lit rooms work: at DL1 there's a 100% chance of a room being lit, at DL2, it's 96%, etc. Traps would be the same: at DL1, a trap has 100% chance of *not* being created, at DL2 96%, etc. But this is kind of long winded and unnecessary. I'd much rather just no traps at DL1.

EDIT: Also, the conundrum with your suggestion is that a new @ should get to ~DL5 asap... but what if you die along the way by falling into a trap?
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Old March 21, 2008, 21:41   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
What traps on the first few levels do is encourage you to get your ass down to dl 5 or below, where there are plenty of Rods of Trap Detection. You can be past the danger level within a few hundred moves of the start of the game. (cl 5 before 1000 player turns is eminently doable.)
Well, then, why not start the game with CL5 on DL5? Also, remove hobbit mages, because they still cause problems and start character generation with as high CON as the race/class can get at birth and only then roll/assign points? Also, perhaps just start with a rod of trap detection and searching and perception skills removed?

I'm not just sneering. Perhaps Angband would be a better game if it started quicker. But if so, change it instead of balancing it for quick starters or even disregarding flaws because they don't happen for them...

As for me, I have the most fun just surviving at the first few levels. If I get too good at that (takes a _lot_ of time) I choose weak races and classes and roll my stats randomly. Or I role-play, e.g. a barbarian or a clueless hobbit merchant. Being a min-maxing super-hero is fun, but survival is fun, too. The best thing is, you can get both --- one at shallow levels, the other at deep levels. Leading a clueless hobbit farmer that started with maxxed DEX and CHR to the King of Arda status is what I dream about. I'm already getting better and better at the clueless hobbit farmer part.

Last edited by Bandobras; March 21, 2008 at 21:49.
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Old March 21, 2008, 21:55   #9
Pete Mack
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About those traps. The trouble with this kind of argument is that it is based on fairness, and Angband, by design, is not. Angband is about playing the odds. Why shouldn't this include the odds of a silly death by traps on dl 1?

I just don't see tweaking the game to eliminate the miniscule number of deaths to traps on dl 1. What this change will really do is decrease the cost of scumming dl 1 prior to beginning your trip.

As for hobbit mages--they get Detect Traps at cl 3 so traps really aren't their weakness; they are a challenge class for other reasons.
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Old March 21, 2008, 22:13   #10
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The thing is that by the time you get detect traps, this issue becomes a non-issue, since all of this only really applies to CL1.

Also, your argument for not fixing this confuses me; we shouldn't get this changed because... well, we just shouldn't?
Dying from a trap you couldn't have prevented doesn't add anything to the game (since you aren't able to learn from your mistakes, etc), but certainly takes away, since you didn't do anything wrong but now you've got to reroll.

I can't imagine this being very difficult to code, either:
if (DL == 1)
don't make trap
endif
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