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Old October 18, 2014, 22:43   #1
absolutego
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artefact generation

out of curiosity i scraped the winning logs for mpa-sil (which dump artefact generation data, since debo wrote it). so, relatively low number of samples and whichever other caveats you want to throw in, but:

Code:
67/67: The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth
57/67: The Wolf-Hame of Draugluin
49/67: The Bat-Fell of Thuringwethil
46/67: The Dagger 'Angrist'
45/67: The Mighty Hammer 'Grond'
44/67: The Shortsword of Amrod
40/67: The Shortsword 'Dagmor'
39/67: The Cloak of Maglor
35/67: The Arrow 'Dailir'
35/67: The Dagger of Azaghal
34/67: The Longsword 'Orcrist'
34/67: The Pair of Boots of Finrod
32/67: The Longsword 'Glamdring'
31/67: The Kite Shield of Hador
30/67: The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
30/67: The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth
30/67: The Galvorn Armour of Maeglin
29/67: The Longbow 'Belthronding'
28/67: The Mail Corslet of Fingon
28/67: The Greatsword 'Calris'
27/67: The Mail Corslet of Gundor
26/67: The Battle Axe 'Dramborleg'
26/67: The Dagger of Nargil
26/67: The Greatsword of Saithnar
26/67: The Shortbow of Celegorm
26/67: The Pair of Boots of Irime
25/67: The Kite Shield of the Swan
24/67: The Pair of Greaves of the Helcaraxe
23/67: The Kite Shield of Fingolfin
23/67: The Hauberk of Maedhros
23/67: The Pair of Boots of Taur-nu-Fuin
23/67: The Great Axe of Nogrod
22/67: The Shortsword of Galadriel
21/67: The Serpentine Ring of Barahir
21/67: The Spear of Boldog
21/67: The Battle Axe of Hurin
19/67: The Set of Gloves of Celebrimbor
19/67: The Spear 'Aeglos'
18/67: The Mail Corslet of Durin
18/67: The Set of Gauntlets of Gamil Zirak
17/67: The Helm of Curufin
17/67: The Pearl 'Nimphelos'
17/67: The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel'
17/67: The Longsword 'Narsil'
16/67: The Jewel 'Elessar'
16/67: The Set of Gloves of Rumil
15/67: The Bastard Sword 'Anguirel'
15/67: The Hauberk of Nevrast
15/67: The Round Shield of Angrod
15/67: The Greatsword 'Glend'
15/67: The Shortbow 'Death's Sting'
14/67: The Crown of Dark Secrets
14/67: The Shadow Cloak of Luthien
13/67: The Set of Gloves of Brethil
13/67: The Robe of Aredhel
13/67: The Amulet of Tinfang Gelion
13/67: The Glaive of the Sirion
12/67: The Ring of Melian
12/67: The Necklace of the Dwarves
12/67: The Hauberk of Amon Rudh
11/67: The Round Shield of Glorfindel
11/67: The Leather Armour of Gorlim
10/67: The Glaive 'Celebrist'
10/67: The Great Spear of Melkor
10/67: The Great Spear of Ogbar
 9/67: The Longbow 'Wyrm's End'
 9/67: The Crown of Daeron
 9/67: The Robe of Idril Celebrindal
 8/67: The Dwarf Mask of the Dwarrowdelf
 8/67: The Jewelled Crown of Feanor
 8/67: The Cloak of Thingol
 7/67: The Leather Armour of Caranthir
 6/67: The War Hammer of Telchar
 6/67: The Glaive of Gaurin
 6/67: The Filthy Rag of Dungalef
 5/67: The Studded Leather of Beor
 5/67: The Longsword 'Aranruth'
 5/67: The Broken Sword of Amras
 5/67: The Dragon-horn Bow of Avernien
 4/67: The Sceptre of Thu
 4/67: The Studded Leather of Aegnor
 3/67: The Mithril Longsword 'Celeg Aithorn'
 3/67: The Set of Mithril Gauntlets 'Silverhand'
 3/67: The Mithril Helm of Ecthelion
 3/67: The Great Helm of Dor-Lomin
 3/67: The Mattock 'Burkfelek'
 3/67: The Great Helm of Utumno
 3/67: The Quarterstaff of Halmir
 3/67: The Dragon-horn Longbow of Avernien
 2/67: The Mithril Shield of Valinor
 1/67: The Mithril Longsword 'Ringil'
 1/67: The Leather Armour 'Catskin'
 1/67: The Lesser Jewel of Finwe
i'm fine with some items being rare (e.g. ringil or celeg aithorn).
it's a bit weird though that fun, not-ridiculously-over-the-top artefacts like catskin or finwe are seemingly just as rare; what happens in practice is that you find the same ones over and over. do you think this could be tweaked?
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Old October 19, 2014, 00:05   #2
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I think Sil would work just fine if artefact probability was constant -- there isn't any artefact that is truly game-breaking enough to guarantee a win. It might be neat to try a build where the probability of generating artefact X was 1/N, where N is the remaining number of artefacts.
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Old October 19, 2014, 11:02   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
I think Sil would work just fine if artefact probability was constant -- there isn't any artefact that is truly game-breaking enough to guarantee a win. It might be neat to try a build where the probability of generating artefact X was 1/N, where N is the remaining number of artefacts.
The problem is that you need Angrist to generate or some builds won't be able to pry a Sil.
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Old October 19, 2014, 11:06   #4
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Originally Posted by locus View Post
The problem is that you need Angrist to generate or some builds won't be able to pry a Sil.
I would be interested in the FOUND statistics as well. Some artefacts are easily missed.
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Old October 19, 2014, 11:14   #5
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Thanks, this is very helpful data for balancing the generation probabilities. While there is some degree to which finding strong artefacts can increase the chance of a winner, I guess that this isn't distorting things too much.

I'd definitely prefer the probabilities to be quite a bit flatter than this. I'm not certain whether debo's suggestion of totally flat probabilities would be better yet (it is nice and simple). It would certainly require larger changes to the way object generation works.

absolutego: do you have an easy way to check how many 0/67 entries are missing at the bottom of your table? The only one I can spot is the Mithril Corslet 'Starlight'.
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Old October 19, 2014, 11:53   #6
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It's not quite the same as what i proposed, but I'm going to try a game where i just edit artefacts.txt so that all arts have a depth of 1 and a rarity of like 25 or something.

I looked into changing object generation and it wouldn't be terrible to do -- I might take a crack at that eventually.
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Old October 19, 2014, 12:08   #7
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Quote:
I would be interested in the FOUND statistics as well. Some artefacts are easily missed.
i guess you mean "identified"? if so that's moot because in mpa-sil all artefacts id on sight. (the logs include a "found" flag; all that means is that you've seen it, as opposed to generated in a level but unseen).

Quote:
absolutego: do you have an easy way to check how many 0/67 entries are missing at the bottom of your table? The only one I can spot is the Mithril Corslet 'Starlight'.
not really. there are 93 entries in artefact.txt (eliminating duplicates and debugging stuff) and 93 entries in the list above. since starlight is indeed missing, i guess you took one artefact out relatively recently? that'd be all then. (unless i messed up somewhere.)
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Old October 19, 2014, 18:36   #8
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Thanks. I'm not sure we removed anything, but I'm willing to believe Starlight is the only one missing.

Do you know what distribution of game versions these cover? Relevant as we introduced new artefacts and tweaked some frequencies in 1.2, and I wouldn't want to correct for effects that are only showing up because of old saves.
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Old October 19, 2014, 19:59   #9
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Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Do you know what distribution of game versions these cover?
I added the artefact dumping in late mpa-sil-1.1.1. So, this probably globs together 1.1.1 and 1.2.x games.
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Old October 20, 2014, 10:15   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
I added the artefact dumping in late mpa-sil-1.1.1. So, this probably globs together 1.1.1 and 1.2.x games.
A version with just 1.2.1 dumps would be useful.
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