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From: Andrew Doull <andrewdoull@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Warp Rogue - perma-death no longer the default
Date: 2007-01-09 16:28:39
Agent: Angband.oook.cz web gateway

On 2007-01-09 12:00:45, "dpeg" <ploog@zio.mathematik.hu-berlin.de> wrote:

> Andrew Doull schrieb:
>
> > Point 6: Unangband has dungeon branches and different styles. Probably you're
> > using style in a different context though...
>
>
> By styles I refer to 'melee-oriented fighter', 'ranged-attacker',
> 'spellcaster (offensive)'.

Ah, so we are using styles in the same context here. Unangband's allows
characters to pick 1 specialisation at the start, in addition to class, which
includes, funnily enough - the backstab ability...

> Stabbing is another skill that gives
> huge damage boni for attacking asleep monsters with a small blade.
> Hence, it is a valid and really cool style to see some tough monster in
> a Crawl dungeon (say an ogre when you're still low level), choose a
> path that has minimal open space to the ogre and kill the thing in one
> single hit. Nethack's rogues have only throw daggers, nothing all.

However, this sort of detail is what I was looking for. The fact that Crawl has
a) a wake-up algorithm depending on LOS
b) multiple paths to a monster, shorter ones which may result in having more LOS
to the monster

are the kinds of specific implementation details that are not always clear when
first picking up the game, and are an excellent example of developer 'deep'
thinking.

> While you are right in some sense, gameplay improves with the
> no-buy-policy (IMO). I know this from Nethack, where I dragged every
> single freaking item to the shopkeepers in order to get some more money
> (which could then be burned uselessly at a temple). And  Nethack has no
> autotravel. This was really boring, but it did improve chances
> somewhat, so... I did it.

Surely time spent diving deeper in the dungeon and getting comensurately larger
rewards outweighs the time taken to drag items backwards and forwards at a low
level. Or is it a case that explicitly discouraging this behaviour by
preventing selling stuff to shops is a blunter way of persuading the player?

> Yes, of course (both to other clocks and not everyone likes them). We
> feel, however, that forcing the player to do something sensible in the
> limited time he has, is the best way to get strategic gameplay.

I take it you mean real-life time here. Agreed. There is no point having 100+
hour games...

> > My feelings around what is addictive in a roguelike, and what not too many
> > roguelikes actually implement is presenting clear sub-goals, which can be
> > achieved in reasonable chunks of time and contribute towards larger game goals.
> > Sub-goals might be 'compete a quest to kill monster x', 'learn a spell', 'find
> > poison resistance'.
> >
> > I was surprised you didn't mention something like that.
>
> All of these are typical subgoals in Crawl :) Even better, sometimes
> you will not find a source of poison reistance early on (in extreme
> cases until very late) and then you have to be flexible: several
> branches (Hive, Swamp, Snake Pit) will be very hard without poison
> resistance, so adapt for something else. I like this very much.

How does a new player know that these are subgoals? Or is this something that
has to be learnt through experience e.g. dying and starting again?

Andrew

--
The Roflwtfzomgbbq Quylthulg summons L33t Paladins -more-
http://unangband.berlios.de


Warp Rogue - perma-death no longer the default 134 posts
..... copx 2007-01-03 07:37:53 21
.......... Nolithius 2007-01-03 08:24:59 45
............... David Damerell 2007-01-03 17:47:12 23
.................... copx 2007-01-03 18:40:36 31
......................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-03 22:24:59 15
.............................. copx 2007-01-04 01:09:03 23
................................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 01:18:02 23
........................................ copx 2007-01-04 01:50:44 21
.................... R. Dan Henry 2007-01-04 03:15:25 31
.................... Risto Saarelma 2007-01-04 23:11:00 26
......................... David Damerell 2007-01-08 20:09:34 57
.............................. dpeg 2007-01-09 12:07:13 24
................................... Gerry Quinn 2007-01-09 15:13:05 40
........................................ Martin Read 2007-01-09 20:05:43 21
................................... David Damerell 2007-01-09 15:33:22 19
............... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-03 22:23:53 21
.................... copx 2007-01-04 01:25:50 25
......................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 04:27:35 30
.............................. copx 2007-01-04 08:34:16 53
................................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 14:45:34 54
.............................. Christophe 2007-01-04 10:46:18 7
................................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 14:12:39 15
.......... Slash 2007-01-03 16:49:47 25
.......... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-03 17:10:30 31
............... copx 2007-01-03 18:58:11 41
.................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-03 22:06:15 59
......................... copx 2007-01-04 01:40:11 77
.............................. Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 04:24:20 74
................................... Krice 2007-01-04 08:24:59 6
........................................ Timofei Shatrov 2007-01-04 13:29:45 19
............................................. Krice 2007-01-04 18:08:43 16
.................................................. Jeff Lait 2007-01-04 19:39:40 23
....................................................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 20:21:23 46
.................................................. Martin Read 2007-01-04 20:26:37 31
.................................................. Gerry Quinn 2007-01-04 21:13:28 13
................................... copx 2007-01-04 08:47:24 35
........................................ Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 14:38:30 46
............................................. copx 2007-01-06 05:51:42 75
.................................................. Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-06 17:37:27 56
....................................................... R. Dan Henry 2007-01-07 07:41:13 14
....................................................... copx 2007-01-08 01:27:46 77
............................................................ Elethiomel 2007-01-08 09:04:14 14
............................................................ Jude H 2007-01-08 13:21:23 16
............................................................ Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 15:04:03 58
.................................................. dpeg 2007-01-08 13:02:47 19
........................................ R. Dan Henry 2007-01-06 22:43:52 23
.............................. Ray Dillinger 2007-01-05 02:52:10 14
................................... copx 2007-01-06 06:05:38 28
.............................. R. Dan Henry 2007-01-06 22:43:48 24
................................... copx 2007-01-07 15:19:34 25
........................................ Gamer_2k4 2007-01-07 21:39:36 22
............................................. Mario Donick 2007-01-07 22:45:45 16
.................................................. Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 14:51:48 22
....................................................... Mario Donick 2007-01-08 15:22:00 11
............................................................ Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 15:35:27 17
.................................................. Gamer_2k4 2007-01-08 17:17:59 87
....................................................... Bongo Bill 2007-01-08 19:00:15 32
....................................................... copx 2007-01-09 11:49:20 32
............................................. copx 2007-01-08 00:56:03 48
.................................................. Antoine 2007-01-08 01:51:04 12
.................................................. Jude H 2007-01-08 14:00:49 23
............................................. Gerry Quinn 2007-01-08 14:10:00 31
.................................................. Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 14:53:12 19
....................................................... Sherm Pendley 2007-01-08 19:59:01 13
............................................................ Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 20:40:23 16
...................................................................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-11 17:27:24 15
................................................................. Jude H 2007-01-09 13:24:07 14
...................................................................... Jeff Lait 2007-01-11 18:04:56 21
.................................................. stu 2007-01-11 20:24:10 14
............................................. R. Dan Henry 2007-01-12 08:25:52 43
.................................................. copx 2007-01-12 09:46:06 18
....................................................... Antoine 2007-01-12 10:04:26 32
................................................................. Ray Dillinger 2007-01-12 20:39:20 16
...................................................................... Martin Read 2007-01-12 22:16:01 16
............................................................ Gamer_2k4 2007-01-12 17:45:50 43
.................................................. Nolithius 2007-01-12 17:28:53 36
....................................................... Ray Dillinger 2007-01-12 20:41:02 33
........................................ R. Dan Henry 2007-01-12 08:26:07 47
............................................. copx 2007-01-12 09:56:27 35
......................... dpeg 2007-01-08 12:18:24 17
.............................. Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 14:49:54 30
................................... Andrew Doull 2007-01-08 15:30:45 32
........................................ Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-08 15:46:11 32
........................................ dpeg 2007-01-08 16:44:05 168
............................................. Andrew Doull 2007-01-08 22:41:45 100
.................................................. Andrew Doull 2007-01-08 23:23:05 16
.................................................. dpeg 2007-01-09 12:00:45 161
....................................................... Jude H 2007-01-09 14:05:40 16
....................................................... Andrew Doull 2007-01-09 16:28:39 73
............................................................ dpeg 2007-01-10 11:29:38 68
............................................................ Gerry Quinn 2007-01-10 12:05:25 12
.................................................. Gerry Quinn 2007-01-09 15:02:35 12
.................................................. Martin Read 2007-01-09 20:34:50 36
....................................................... Andrew Doull 2007-01-09 21:26:28 25
................................... dpeg 2007-01-08 16:31:17 33
................................... Martin Read 2007-01-08 19:52:28 39
........................................ dpeg 2007-01-09 12:03:01 28
........................................ Sherm Pendley 2007-01-09 19:54:24 18
.......... Mario Donick 2007-01-04 14:00:37 70
............... Jeff Lait 2007-01-04 17:13:42 90
.................... Mario Donick 2007-01-04 17:59:59 63
......................... Jeff Lait 2007-01-04 19:35:59 76
.............................. Mario Donick 2007-01-04 20:36:23 74
................................... Jeff Lait 2007-01-04 23:02:18 106
........................................ R. Dan Henry 2007-01-06 22:44:12 67
............................................. Jeff Lait 2007-01-08 18:54:33 53
.................................................. Gamer_2k4 2007-01-08 20:48:35 15
........................................ Mario Donick 2007-01-07 11:42:00 51
.................................................. Elethiomel 2007-01-08 09:01:14 15
....................................................... Krice 2007-01-08 11:01:47 18
....................................................... Mario Donick 2007-01-08 12:03:21 34
.................................................. Jude H 2007-01-08 13:41:49 24
............................................. Pointless 2007-01-07 17:03:57 81
....................................................... Gerry Quinn 2007-01-08 14:07:39 25
.................................................. Mario Donick 2007-01-07 18:42:02 70
......................... R. Dan Henry 2007-01-06 22:44:05 18
.............................. Mario Donick 2007-01-07 00:23:27 31
................................... R. Dan Henry 2007-01-07 07:41:33 22
......................... Gamer_2k4 2007-01-07 09:29:23 67
.............................. Mario Donick 2007-01-07 11:26:23 88
................................... Martin Read 2007-01-07 15:22:43 15
.......... jmensch@shaw.ca 2007-01-04 16:27:32 38
............... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 17:03:12 24
............... David Damerell 2007-01-04 17:34:27 11
.................... copx 2007-01-04 20:05:12 20
......................... Kornel Kisielewicz 2007-01-04 20:56:02 22
............... Ray Dillinger 2007-01-05 02:46:58 45
.................... David Damerell 2007-01-08 20:25:54 42
......................... dpeg 2007-01-09 12:18:48 43
......................... Ray Dillinger 2007-01-09 20:11:01 54
.............................. David Damerell 2007-01-10 17:41:35 38
............... copx 2007-01-06 06:45:59 65
.................... Mario Donick 2007-01-06 11:38:14 18
......................... copx 2007-01-07 15:45:02 29


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